Can the "Insta-prone shootouts" be removed?

GodsHolyMember · Post by **GodsHolyMember** » 2005-12-03 04:35

I'm rather frustrated with how it is so easy to get perfect accuracy while diving to the ground. It makes every firefight a joke when you see people with sniper rifles and support weapons jumping into a dive and firing with near perfect accuracy for a beautiful headshot!

Would it be possible to disengage the player's weapon while going prone in the same way when one goes into a sprint? going prone is something that is only done as a way of reducing one's profile only when they plan on staying in one place for an extended period of time. These john-woo DAO-12 and N00B Tube firefights are a complete joke, especially with the added power of the weapons in this lovely mini-mod.

In addition, would it be possible to make a stamina penalty for getting up from being prone relative to how heavy the player class is? Since I don't think it is possible to slow down the speed that the player can stand after going prone, this might also prevent people from using the strafing-proneroll to a dolphin-dive technique as a great way of dodging bullets.

If the hitboxes didn't feel so screwed up, and the tendancy for inaccuracy a little more intuitive (i.e. a crosshair waver rather than cone of innaccuracy), dolphin diving wouldn't be such a difficult problem to contend with.

I'm sure this is on several people's minds already, what is everyone's oppinion on the matter?

Thank you all for your time

Heydude235 · Post by **Heydude235** » 2005-12-03 05:35

I think when you go prone you have to wait 3 secs to fire.

GodsHolyMember · Post by **GodsHolyMember** » 2005-12-03 06:26

sadly no, you can fire while jumping, going prone, getting up from prone, etc. PRMM would be wonderfully suited if you could completely remove the ability to jump/prone while firing.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-03 06:35

I agree wholeheartedly.

Rg · Post by Rg » 2005-12-03 06:36

Gunfighter34ID wrote:I agree wholeheartedly.

+1

Post by **fuzzhead** » 2005-12-03 09:22

ive made simular requests... it is really one of the biggest issues in the game right now (as well as m203)

my suggestion was simply completely remove firing while jumping (devs say its not possible yet though)

also make the first 2 seconds while you are going to prone EXTREMELY inaccurate.

this would stop large amounts of **** happening in bf2 / prmm right now

dawdler · Post by **dawdler** » 2005-12-03 11:10

I dont think one can make use of the sprint state for proning or jumping... One simply cant modify that deep in BF2. Need access to the functions controlling movement.

What is possible though is increasing deviation for an action (ie going prone). Its still a poor show of accuracy though. Without crosshairs or sway, there's no way to get a feel of when the accuracy is good or when it is bad besides actually firing... Which gives away you location. Or waiting a crapload of time just to be on the safe side, which is boring.

So to recap: The BF2 engine sucks for this.

phyte · Post by **phyte** » 2005-12-03 16:02

agreed!

Heydude235 · Post by **Heydude235** » 2005-12-03 17:15

You if you guys dident rush close comabt this would not happen. You have to move slow looking each way. I think prone is fine now bunny hopping should just make your bar go down thne you cant jump.

Suicide Commando · Post by **Suicide Commando** » 2005-12-03 17:23

In real life you can go prone, sprint or jump and shoot at the same time, there is nothing to disengage the soldiers weapon while doing that in reality so why stop them in game? However! in real life it would be insanely innacurate to do this, you'd not hit a thing and only waste ammo. So imo the devs should try their best to make aiming insanely innacurate when actively proning, jumping and sprinting etc...That way it would all be down to self control, something many players in BF2 lack.

dawdler · Post by **dawdler** » 2005-12-03 17:32

Heydude235 wrote:You if you guys dident rush close comabt this would not happen. You have to move slow looking each way. I think prone is fine now bunny hopping should just make your bar go down thne you cant jump.

But we rush into close combat because we can just drop at a moments notice and achieve great accuracy. No real need to stay back and take it slow.

One actually has to look at the gameplay mode to find the real culprit though, not the fact you can dive. In Conquest or even AAS time and speed is what matters. Forward is the only way to go. The steamrolling team is ALWAYS the winner, every experienced BF player knows this. Once you loose the momentum, you loose the round. For people to slow down we need a gameplay mode where time and speed is out of the picture. Where, put simply, taking the final objective wins you the round right there and then.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-03 18:14

Suicide Commando wrote:In real life you can go prone, sprint or jump and shoot at the same time, there is nothing to disengage the soldiers weapon while doing that in reality so why stop them in game? However! in real life it would be insanely innacurate to do this, you'd not hit a thing and only waste ammo. So imo the devs should try their best to make aiming insanely innacurate when actively proning, jumping and sprinting etc...That way it would all be down to self control, something many players in BF2 lack.

Ok, try this experiment. You need a rifle (any will do, an M4 or M16 would be ideal for our purposes here) and a set of BDUs/DCUs/ACUs or civilian apparel closely equivalent in fabric type, thickness, etc. It would also be helpful if you had a k-pot, IBA and a full set of TA-50 on, but that's not strictly necessary.

Now, find an asphalt street or concrete sidewalk. Position yourself to taste (avoid traffic if at all possible). Raise your weapon to high port or low ready--whatever is comfortable. Lean forward. Now sprint ahead for twenty or thirty meters as fast as you can go, then leap forward with your rifle at high ready and your head up, taking no actions whatsoever to mitigate your impending impact with the ground. If you're in a place where you could also be shooting at a man-size target while doing this, that would also be useful to further validate the results, but again, is not necessary.

Good luck!

Rg · Post by Rg » 2005-12-03 18:18

Suicide Commando · Post by **Suicide Commando** » 2005-12-03 18:32

Gunfighter34ID wrote:Ok, try this experiment. You need a rifle (any will do, an M4 or M16 would be ideal for our purposes here) and a set of BDUs/DCUs/ACUs or civilian apparel closely equivalent in fabric type, thickness, etc. It would also be helpful if you had a k-pot, IBA and a full set of TA-50 on, but that's not strictly necessary.

Now, find an asphalt street or concrete sidewalk. Position yourself to taste (avoid traffic if at all possible). Raise your weapon to high port or low ready--whatever is comfortable. Lean forward. Now sprint ahead for twenty or thirty meters as fast as you can go, then leap forward with your rifle at high ready and your head up, taking no actions whatsoever to mitigate your impending impact with the ground. If you're in a place where you could also be shooting at a man-size target while doing this, that would also be useful to further validate the results, but again, is not necessary.

Good luck!

I see someone here doesn't bother to read. Try looking at my post again and maybe you'll see I said aiming and sprinting, aiming and jumping, aiming and proning IS POSSIBLE......BUT.....you'll not hit anything while doing this, you just waste ammo. How about you go do what you suggested and report back when you find the magic force which disengages your weapon.

The point is - all this CAN be done in real life. So instead of making an unrealistic choice for a realism mod why not keep the realism by dropping the accuracy of the weapon while proning, sprinting, jumping etc

If you'd had read my post I'd not have had to repeat this.

Forced disengaging of weapon - not realistic
Insane inaccuracy - realistic

[edit] sorry for the sarcasm, no offense intended. Oh and I realised you're suggestions would only go to prove my point

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-03 18:54

Obviously jumping, sprinting, etc. don't magically engage the safety on your weapon. I agree with you on that point. You theoretically could do all of the stuff you mentioned. I'm not sure you'd ever do, or want to do, or maybe even be able to do any of it more than once.

What I think is unrealistic is the sprint or trot and dolphin-dive instant transition to prone in the first place. If you dive on hard ground while moving at a full sprint and keep your weapon in the ready position instead of doing a slide or protecting yourself during the fall you're going to end up with some extremely painful, and very possibly injurious results. That stuff may work in John Woo movies or the Matrix, but that's all high fantasy. In the real world you end up skinned up, bruised up, and maybe even with cracked ribs or a broken nose from your head whiplashing into your weapon or the ground. And I imagine those new straps they have would prevent it, but back in the day you'd have also ended up with your k-pot over your eyes because it would slide forward on a hard impact like that.

Also, sprinting with a weapon and full combat load is more difficult than games make it seem. By that, I don't mean that you can't sprint under those circumstances, but I'd suggest to anyone that they get a rifle and go out and try running at a full sprint with it. You're going to have to adjust your carry position to high port or low ready or some bastardization of them. You'd really be reduced to a point where you could sprint or fire, not both, unless you were just firing wildly in the air or into the ground at your side. You wouldn't even be firing in the direction of the enemy. I know you said it would be wildly innacurate, and I know what you're trying to convey, but even a wildly innacurate shot in the direction of the enemy has a chance to hit, particularly at point blank range. In my opinion sprinting and shooting gives you no chance whatsoever.

As for jumping and shooting--and I'm sure you agree here--why? In the real world guys can't jump off of three story buildings without breaking their legs and/or backs and necks, or jump up on top of metal tube fence posts and walk, or jump over walls. But I'll bet if they could they'd be hard-pressed keeping their weapons pointed in the direction of the enemy while doing it.

Suicide Commando · Post by **Suicide Commando** » 2005-12-03 19:13

Gunfighter34ID wrote:Obviously jumping, sprinting, etc. don't magically engage the safety on your weapon. I agree with you on that point. You theoretically could do all of the stuff you mentioned. I'm not sure you'd ever do, or want to do, or maybe even be able to do any of it more than once.

Yup its something you wouldn't want to do, so just make it pointless rather than blocking the player from doing it. Whatever is easier for the devs is ok by me though.

What I think is unrealistic is the sprint or trot and dolphin-dive instant transition to prone in the first place. If you dive on hard ground while moving at a full sprint and keep your weapon in the ready position instead of doing a slide or protecting yourself during the fall you're going to end up with some extremely painful, and very possibly injurious results. That stuff may work in John Woo movies or the Matrix, but that's all high fantasy. In the real world you end up skinned up, bruised up, and maybe even with cracked ribs or a broken nose from your head whiplashing into your weapon or the ground. And I imagine those new straps they have would prevent it, but back in the day you'd have also ended up with your k-pot over your eyes because it would slide forward on a hard impact like that.

Now if thats what you were talking about I would agree. However it got me thinking (whoo!) if it is ever possible then it would be cool to slightly damage the player when they dolphin-dive on a hard surface!

Or instead of damage they could have blured vision for a second. I've done dolphin-dives on grass and softer surfaces with a rifle and kit without "much" trouble in the past.

Also, sprinting with a weapon and full combat load is more difficult than games make it seem. By that, I don't mean that you can't sprint under those circumstances, but I'd suggest to anyone that they get a rifle and go out and try running at a full sprint with it. You're going to have to adjust your carry position to high port or low ready or some bastardization of them. You'd really be reduced to a point where you could sprint or fire, not both, unless you were just firing wildly in the air or into the ground at your side. You wouldn't even be firing in the direction of the enemy. I know you said it would be wildly innacurate, and I know what you're trying to convey, but even a wildly innacurate shot in the direction of the enemy has a chance to hit, particularly at point blank range. In my opinion sprinting and shooting gives you no chance whatsoever.

Something like the sprint system in red orchestra would be good then - the weapon is brought up to the chest as you sprint.

As for jumping and shooting--and I'm sure you agree here--why? In the real world guys can't jump off of three story buildings without breaking their legs and/or backs and necks, or jump up on top of metal tube fence posts and walk, or jump over walls. But I'll bet if they could they'd be hard-pressed keeping their weapons pointed in the direction of the enemy while doing it.

I'm sure those things would be sorted by the developers at some stage (if possible) but the two options I can think of right now to sort out shooting while jumping would be 1) Make the weapon innaccurate or 2) bring the weapon up to the players chest area.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2005-12-04 00:30

solodude23 wrote:Since it is NOT realistic to take away your ability to fire and prone at once, what would be stupid about "doplphin diving" in real life? Simple. Make you veryunaccurate when you jump, and when you go prone, (very realistic too) and besides that you cna make it another 1-2 seconds for you to become accurate again.

And you'll probably hurt yourself, especially if there's loads of **** all over the ground from blown up vehicles and the like, and the fact you have all that weight on and a rifle there that will probably make you move it in such a way that it'd smack you in the face when you go prone, to avoid smashing your elbows.