Remove Squad Leader spawn point

[indigo|blade]

Listen, I'm not trying to force you guys to SL the way I do, and for the record I don't always sit on my *** as a spawn point either; but I do think the option should stay open.

indigo|blade + thinking = Disaster.

Let's try not to make personal attacks guys.

[Tartantyco]

Let's try not to make personal attacks guys.

-But... Personal attacks are my forte. But I'm sorry, I just had to do it once you posted that Lead + Fight = Rambo thing . Rambo is going out in the bush with a tank-top, a bow, and an M60 MG and killing of the entire Khmer Rouge yourself.

[indigo|blade]

I submit to your much better definition!

[tekkyy]

I have yet to find a player that LOVED to play the transport guy. Usually after the driving's done they join the squad and its objective at that time.

Its cool to pick up stranded people. Games are easily won that way. Good logistics vs. bad logistics.

I understand your intent here fuzz, but I think having the tactical option(of spawning on the SL) far out weighs the slap on the hand received by not being able to.

Actually its some of those tactical options possible with SL spawns is what I feel ruins teamwork.

If you think spawning on top of your SL on an enemy flag is important to teamwork then I rest my case.

[tekkyy]

I am positive there are dozens of alternative mods on dozens of alternative engines that can give you hyper-realism.

I find that a little insulting.
You do know whats the aim of project reality right?
And no point talking about other games.

[Tartantyco]

-Heh, I think indigo|blade and Ace42 are vBF2 players at heart, constantly asking "You wouldn't find building assets for the commander for ten minutes fun." Yes, I would. "You wouldn't find transporting fun." Actually... Yes I would. "You wouldn't like walking for ten minutes." Not that that is likely to happen with the amount of spawns available but, yes I would and already have on several occasions. Ace, indigo; what you like and dislike in a game doesn't have to be what I like and dislike in a game.

[$kelet0r]

I would be ecstatic to see squad leader spawning gone forever ... I just wish the PR players were more adaptable in their thinking and vision to accept the logic behind such ideas. Spawning on a squad leader is just ... cheating. In any other game people would scream and laugh if such an idea was mentioned but BF2 has dumbed down fps play so much that taking away something that is normally totally unacceptable in pretty much every other game in existance (read magic minimap, sl spawning dynamics, reviving etc.) causes uproar.

[Dunehunter]

Actually, I freakin' love flying the BH for the entire round, giving people rides

[gazzthompson]

the transport people are the unsung heroes of the round !!! they get little points but do alot of work to the teams success

[indigo|blade]

Its cool to pick up stranded people. Games are easily won that way. Good logistics vs. bad logistics.

Yes, it's cool to pick up stranded people, but I've never seen a guy sit in his jeep/APC and do this exclusively for the entire game. I doubt you have either. I've seen squad members drive for their squad consistently, but once the squad reaches destination they hop out and ground pound.

Actually its some of those tactical options possible with SL spawns is what I feel ruins teamwork.

If you think spawning on top of your SL on an enemy flag is important to teamwork then I rest my case.

It's important in a tactical sense, yes. Attacking an objective from 2 different angles is wise, no? If it ruined teamwork, this mod would have scrapped it long ago. fuzzhead mentioned how spawning on SL accelerated gameplay, and that's partly true. One more spot to spawn on does give you another chance to stay on the frontline. I don't think it ruins teamwork though. I have yet to see a good argument proving that spawning on the SL ruins teamwork.

Buck up and give an example(as fuzzhead has) or you are just blowing smoke from bad personal experiences.

-Heh, I think indigo|blade and Ace42 are vBF2 players at heart, constantly asking "You wouldn't find building assets for the commander for ten minutes fun." Yes, I would. "You wouldn't find transporting fun." Actually... Yes I would. "You wouldn't like walking for ten minutes." Not that that is likely to happen with the amount of spawns available but, yes I would and already have on several occasions. Ace, indigo; what you like and dislike in a game doesn't have to be what I like and dislike in a game.

You don't know me or [DVB] very well.

I think you may need to take a step back son and realize these aren't personal attacks on your precious ego. We are having an intelligent discussion on a gameplay mechanic, period.

With that, I think my time here is done. Thanks folks for the discussion!

Salute!

[IAJTHOMAS]

the transport people are the unsung heroes of the round !!! they get little points but do alot of work to the teams success

I remember a server having the squad bug on EJOD, so i jumped in a humvee and gave lifts to all the guys spawning at main because that was the only place they could (pre-0.6). Maybe I'm just odd, but I enjoyed the feeling of knowing I was helping my team win the round, even if I couldn't do it in my usual squad joining way.

It was great until someone TK'd me because he wanted it for his 4 man squad to use and bugger everyone else

[Long Bow]

Damn you Fuzzhead!!!! This is the second time you have swayed my opinion. I was pretty much against removing the SL spawn. After reading Fuzzheads post I have to change my opinion and support the removal. I don't remember the other topic you posted in but the same thing happened

The one example of assualting a bunker on Mestia in a CQC situation is what tipped the scales for me. The fact that you can clear 5 enemy out of a bunker while a SL sits in the basement pisses me off. It creates such an arcade like situation all of a sudden in a realistic game.

[Outlawz7]

Yeah and removing the SL spawn will take pressure off the SL. At least for me, becuase my squad wont have to focus on keeping me alive, while they get massacred and just pop out of my behind and going back to battle.
But puts pressure on keeping RP alive and protected.

[tekkyy]

but I've never seen a guy sit in his jeep/APC and do this exclusively for the entire game. I doubt you have either.

Nope I haven't. But if I get better with the choppers I might.
Just too many times my team lost due to logistics, which is quite important in AAS.

If it ruined teamwork, this mod would have scrapped it long ago.

As we introduced changes we find different things.

We couldn't have removed SL spawn long time ago because we haven't introduced all these changes. eg. vBF2 CP and spawn was one thing.

I have yet to see a good argument proving that spawning on the SL ruins teamwork.
Buck up and give an example(as fuzzhead has) or you are just blowing smoke from bad personal experiences.

Yeah I gave one example. SL capturing flag. Spawn on SL to help.
I used the description pooff earlier in the thread lol.

Thats what I dislike the most.
I guess if you find that ok we just have to agree to disagree.

I think you may need to take a step back son and realize these aren't personal attacks on your precious ego. We are having an intelligent discussion on a gameplay mechanic, period.

No it was fine. I didn't feel personal attack on me at all. I mean I was in the earlier pages but not the latest pages (which was fuzz's last post and your posts).

[Wolfe]

There are two types of players:

• Those who want to win by killing
• Those who want to win by strategy

The first type is always in favor of any game feature that provides the fastest road to killing another player. This includes advocating multiple spawn locations near the action, low spawn times, and super accurate weapons at range. In this case, those who are against removing the SL spawn seem to be against it solely because it would slow down their ability to kill quickly and pwn.

The majority of public non-clan players seem to be this type. Kill, kill, kill. If you disagree, it only takes a glance at the mini-map during gameplay to realize that most players zerg to the flag with the most action, even at the expense of leaving defensive flags undefended. And with the knowledge that they can respawn close to the action if they die, there is no fear of death. Rush, rush, rush. Kill, kill, kill. Zerg, zerg, zerg.

And who can blame them? There are far too many places to spawn that have nothing to do with controlling flags. In fact, there are not one, not two, but THREE easy methods of spawning directly on a flag that you don't even control! wtf? Squad leader, apc, and commander truck. ALL THREE of these spawn methods should be removed if not only for that reason alone. How is it anywhere near realistic or strategic to spawn on flags you down own?

And as for rally points, I think placement should be limited to an area around a flag you control, not placing a magical black hole out in the wilderness deep in enemy territory.

The only spawn that should be allowed away from a friendly flag point is a commander's fire base. Maybe then people would be more likely to employ teamwork in capturing and defending flags if their spawn options were limited to team goals rather than individual squad goals.

[Outlawz7]

^^^^

I aprove of this post

[Zybon]

My only problem with removing these spawns is that hunting rally points will become even more important. Hopefully people will adapt by placing rallies so far away the enemy wouldn't try to find them, but then you'll run into problems for specific maps.

[SuperTimo]

It really is difficult desision, i can see howremoving SL spawn can increase team work and give more thoughtful ness to movements and im p***ed off defending a flag and then movng out to kill an attacker and sudenly being outnumberd 6 to 1.

However i can see how problems can occour with things such as transport, like when u get idiots who drive off on their own leaving about 15 troops behind (all of whom start shooting at the driver leading to TKs if its a soft skin car) then there is the insurgent spawn problem but i do like the idea of safe houses, (it would also be fun to raid these house as the brits adding a new element of play).

Generally i think it would work well without SL respawn but may lead to walks which are boring, (i rember tabbing 7kms on Kashan Dessert after some berk drove off without me) but still would add to the realism and therefore the fun.

BTW if u want to find ut about how squads work try reading "Clear and Present Danger" by Tom Clancey the depth he goes into is amazing everything
from weapons to tactics to movements!

[[T]Terranova7]

I still prefer my "hybrid" idea best. You still need the SL spawn to get the squad together sometimes.
__________________

Here's a scenario: You just joined the server in the middle of the game right? Scroll down the spawn menu to find that all the current squads are filled. You decide to create your own squad. With no members however, you don't have ability to set down a RP. So chances are you go about your business, probably tagging along some other squad or helping the commander build stuff.

Several minutes into the game, more players join and end up in your squad. The problem being you're across the map, and don't have the resources to set down a rally point. Now you have to spend a good deal of time getting together, getting an officer's kit and finding a good spot to lay down a RP.

In another scenario: Let's say the squad is infact organized. We have a RP, a balanced distribution of kits, and a plan of attack (or defence). Suddenly the opposition has engaged in brutal firefight with you and your team. Your squad becomes overwhelmed, and you lose your rally point and several squad members. However you do manage to survive the chaos. Your deceased squad members have no other option but to spawn at the main CP, APC, or commander's asset which may be quite a ways from your position. At this point of the game, most of the transportation assets have been destroyed.

So now the SL may choose to wait for the squad to find a method of transportation back to his/her position, or the SL can find a way to get him/herself killed.

And finally there's the issue of the amount of players needed to use the RP. Without the SL spawn, operating a two or three man squad becomes exceedingly difficult.

__________________

My idea basically restricts SL spawning when the squad leader is within a specified range of an enemy or friendly flag. This way, you never have to worry about SLs hiding on the flag and having his/her squad to consistently spawn in during engagements. You also achieve the same desired effect of having SLs "fall back" & "regroup" should his/her squad take heavy casualities.

To further increase the value of rally points, you could have all kits limited except for the rifleman. This way the only way to have a balanced and diverse squad is to have a RP, and visit that RP frequently.

[indigo|blade]

I like the idea of limiting the SL spawn to say, 100 meters from a CP, sure! I would even make it ~50 meters, so you could still have a stepping stone to the CP from the rally.

I also like your rally point idea. Nice compromise.