Anti-Tanking and Vehicle Play Ruining Infantry...

[Chapel]

So first off, I'd like to give a lot of love to the PR staff cause I love the changes and the game is fun......mostly.

That said, armored vehicles simply ruin this incarnation of PR. I've been playing PR for a while, and after .6 vehicles have become obtrusive to good infantry play. Especially if you get a squad that knows what thier doing in tanks.

Some maps, there are as many as 6-8 tanks, plus APCs per side. So you've got about 12 people or so rolling around in armor. Unfortunately, there are also a good deal of players who aren't good at tanking and get your sides armor wasted quickly. Now i'm not for having tanks spawn quicker, a 20 min wait when it's down is a good thing. However, 1 and at MOST 2 tanks is all any map needs.

So you say, grab the HAT or LAT and take em down! Load up a combat engineer and mine thier sorry armor'd butt back to oblivion. Ahhhh...point taken, but denied.

1. HAT's get snatched up, and who knows where the hell they go. They're not hitting armor. I've yet to be able to allocate a kit and use the HAT. That said, it may actually work. But you can't get em, so it makes them worthless for the most part.

2. LAT's don't do anything to tanks. I've hit a tank twice on the side armor and nothing seemed to be to dented. If you're at range, well that's even worse, the RPG I was using was wildly inaccurate at anything over 50m. They take forever to reload (Only if you have a rifleman nearby to supply ammo) and once you get that reload that's it. It's tough as hell to get close too cause tanks and APC's have super zoom guns too.

3. C4 packs - Several times I've snuck up on an APC and tacked one o' these babies onto it and gotten myself to safety to detonate. Didn't kill it. Slapped one straight onto the back door, and one on the rear right armor. Both times, it detonated, but failed to destroy it outright. It lasted a good minute while people jumped out and started killing, and finally burned down. Haven't even TRIED to stick one o' these on a tank, as it is almost impossible to get around a tank to do so.

4. Mines - Mine up the road you say! Well that's a good idea, except most people know what mines look like and avoid em. You have to get SUPER creative and even then, with only 1 mine, you really still only have a **** shoot.

So some suggestions:

1. Limit tanks to 1 per map, and APC's to 2 at most per map. Spawn points are to far? Well you can move the spawn points closer. Some spawn points are rediculously far from even a supply zone and it's a 10 mile walk just to get an officers kit! You could add more Jeeps, humvee's and vodniks for transport. They still work great.

2. Allow LAT's to carry more ammo, but still take a long time to reload. Of course a smart tanker will just drive off, but at least you'll have removed him from the area for a while.

3. Make C4 way more powerful. It needs to destroy an APC on a rear hit OUTRIGHT! You're blowing in the door, it should slay all who's inside at the very least. Side hits I would also argue should destroy it as well, it's not a tank after all, and it's tough as nails to creep up and ambush vehicles with C4.You should be able to disable a tank with C4 too. Rear hits at least, and side hits should knock off the tracks. Toss a satchel on top and the turret should go down at the very least. Might also give em two satchels of C4, so they can be an effective tank buster. Especially if they get a pair on that beast!

4. Mines - Make it so that combat engineers can bury em. They should also get 3 so that they can mine an area and make it effectively dangerous. As it is, tanks and APC's just drive around em, and ignore em cause they can see em.

5. Make it so that vehicles can NOT capture points on the map. Only infantry should be able to secure an area and capture it, with tanks as "Support". The only vehicle you should be able to capture from, is a Humvee, Jeep, or Vodnik. Might also make it so that squad members can't spawn onto a SL that's in a tank.

6. Make it so that the tank/apc drivers can't move the vehicle AND gun from it. The pintle mounted MG is one thing, but 1 man tank crews are dumb. The solution seems easy enough...
Crewman Driver Kit
Crewman Gunner Kit

This way at least vehicles will need to be manned by two different people, and they can't just swap back n' forth.

Project Reality always seemed like an infantry mans game. Rally points, squad leaders, moving as a squad and team. Yea, it's all worthless with Super Tanks roaming the countryside.....and 8 of em at that! Bring back the infantry side of the game, and make infantry more dangerous to tanks. Historically tanks and armored vehicles have ALWAYS been supported by infantry. Currently there's no need for infantry support, let alone infantry if you're a tanker. Just gotta be lucky enough to not have an enemy HAT nearby.

Thanks for the time it took to read my suggestions and hopefully I'm not the only infantryman that's having troubles and spending most of my game hiding from armor.

[<<SpanishSurfer>>]

Tanks already have their limits for gunner/driver. Switching from driver to gunner has a delay, which is there to encourage 2 man crews/tank. BF2/PR is not focused on just infantry, it's all out war. Some maps are focused on infantry, others on armor. I suggest you start practicing with armor or avoid the armor maps.

I do agree that the scales are a bit unbalanced regarding infantry vs armor. I don't agree with your solutions but I have always thought the perfect solution to be to include TOW missiles as a commander asset, like AAA. Also include 1-2 vehicles with a tow launcher mounted on the top.

Even ARMA lets you switch between the two and it's a war simulator. The more complicated we make the game the smaller the fan base we'll get.

[{GD}Ghost]

I'd say its a good idea to not allow switching between driver and gunner positions at all unless you actually get out....or make the delay much longer.

As far as mines: Aren't mines usually buried and not just sitting on top of the ground? No wonder they can be seen and avoided in PR. Its like setting up and ambush and putting a sign on the road that says "Beware, Ambush".

[Skullening.Chris]

I'd say its a good idea to not allow switching between driver and gunner positions at all unless you actually get out....or make the delay much longer.

Amen. But I'd say the same for APCs, humvees, etc...

[fartknocker12345]

Please refrain from telling the Developers that they are pathetic at what they, especialy when your assumption is based not on the wave length or reality, but your own personal preferences.

The c4 needs to be way stronger, I was playing Qwai River and there was an m1a2 and i stuck c4 Right ON THE TRACK then i detonated it and did NOTHING TO THE TANK AT ALL. Pathetic, Devs you guys need to fix this...

[Deadfast]

I'd say its a good idea to not allow switching between driver and gunner positions at all unless you actually get out....or make the delay much longer.

Sorry to say, but hardcoded - been suggested before and this was official dev's statement. AFAIK devs want to implement engine warm-up time instead.

[ReaperMAC]

To take out a tank with engineer, you got to be a little bit more creative. You should put the mine under the tank while you put the C4 on the tank. Once you detonate the C4, it will cause the tank to move and detonate the mine as well. Problem solved.

[VipersGhost]

The c4 needs to be way stronger, I was playing Qwai River and there was an m1a2 and i stuck c4 Right ON THE TRACK then i detonated it and did NOTHING TO THE TANK AT ALL. Pathetic, Devs you guys need to fix this...

Look man...a wee little bit of C4 isn't going to completely destroy a massive battle tank. Maybe break its track if placed there, that sounds more plausible. The trick to waxing tanks\apcs is to drop your C4...AND your landmine. Then detonate (both C4 and landmine will pop) and watch the bodies fly...easy as pie.

BTW you act like its the devs sole job to bend to your will and suggestion...I would present a lot of fact based researc/expereince before you go spouting off about what needs to be fix with such a tone. How many times IRL do you think some dude runs up to a tank...slaps C4 on it and blows it up? If I'm right, and I think I am, that rarely if EVER has happened on the modern battlefield. So why would we promote vanilla gameplay? Is that what you want? If so then go back and get some. So enough ***-jack, hangout around here for a while and learn something before you go breakin someones balls about "Pathetic" stuff.

[Mongolian_dude]

So first off, I'd like to give a lot of love to the PR staff cause I love the changes and the game is fun......mostly.

That said, armored vehicles simply ruin this incarnation of PR. I've been playing PR for a while, and after .6 vehicles have become obtrusive to good infantry play. Especially if you get a squad that knows what thier doing in tanks.

Well, thats exactly what the outcome should be. The fools lose for being foolish and the clever/not lazy ones win for being clever and not lazy. If it was any different, then you would have complained long ago.

Some maps, there are as many as 6-8 tanks, plus APCs per side. So you've got about 12 people or so rolling around in armor. Unfortunately, there are also a good deal of players who aren't good at tanking and get your sides armor wasted quickly. Now i'm not for having tanks spawn quicker, a 20 min wait when it's down is a good thing. However, 1 and at MOST 2 tanks is all any map needs.

When there are this many armour peices, its because it is an armour map. The whole map revolves around it. If you dont like it, change server or get in a Tank yourself. I cant stress how devestating a clever and cordinated HAT crew is against an MBT(s). They are most dependant on positioning and terrain.

1. HAT's get snatched up, and who knows where the hell they go. They're not hitting armor. I've yet to be able to allocate a kit and use the HAT. That said, it may actually work. But you can't get em, so it makes them worthless for the most part.

In my experience, Qwai river is lost 9/10 by the USMC because chinese armour runs wild. No one gets HAT and just hopes someone else will, so they can carry on pwnzorzing with teh_sniper rifle.

2. LAT's don't do anything to tanks. I've hit a tank twice on the side armor and nothing seemed to be to dented. If you're at range, well that's even worse, the RPG I was using was wildly inaccurate at anything over 50m. They take forever to reload (Only if you have a rifleman nearby to supply ammo) and once you get that reload that's it. It's tough as hell to get close too cause tanks and APC's have super zoom guns too.

The reason why LAT does nothing, is because IRL they just do nothing. They dont have a very good range and arnt worth the hassle against decent grade armor. APCs take two shots to the rear to destroy with LAT. Be accompanied by a rifleman for ammo.

3. C4 packs - Several times I've snuck up on an APC and tacked one o' these babies onto it and gotten myself to safety to detonate. Didn't kill it. Slapped one straight onto the back door, and one on the rear right armor. Both times, it detonated, but failed to destroy it outright. It lasted a good minute while people jumped out and started killing, and finally burned down. Haven't even TRIED to stick one o' these on a tank, as it is almost impossible to get around a tank to do so.

It doesnt work because it donest happen IRL.

4. Mines - Mine up the road you say! Well that's a good idea, except most people know what mines look like and avoid em. You have to get SUPER creative and even then, with only 1 mine, you really still only have a **** shoot.

Yes, do be creative. Like, C4 in the middle of the road, and mines off to the side. That way, the MBT will try to avoid that and hit the mine. You dodnt even HAVE to watch the C4 to detonate it.

The c4 needs to be way stronger, I was playing Qwai River and there was an m1a2 and i stuck c4 Right ON THE TRACK then i detonated it and did NOTHING TO THE TANK AT ALL. Pathetic, Devs you guys need to fix this...

No, they dont NEEED to do anything. I would think it is a good think that C4 does jack-squit to a Tank, because it will detere people from doing it, as it just doesnt happen IRL. Please chose your words carefuly, as 'pathetic' comes across quite condecending and rude. Your lucky its a MOD and not a DEV that is saying this.

...mongol...

[Chapel]

Yea actually I thought of that and posted about it in another post, but forgot to mention it here. TOW's would be great to have as a commander asset, and i'd like to see that implemented. Be nice to get em on top of Humvee's as well, at least on 1 or maybe 2.

I'll have to try the landmine/C4 deal, but getting a tank to sit still that long is a long shot. Even more so for APC's.

At the very LEAST they could at least take the number of tanks down a bit. 6-8 tanks plus APCs is rediculous. That they CAN do.

[fuzzhead]

You can place up to 8 landmines. When deploying your landmine field, be sure to be close to an ammo source (vehicle or RP). Place one, then go back, get another, and place that.

Ive had a squad of 4 engineers put down 32 landmines in about 4 minutes.

Certain maps are armor maps, certain maps are infantry maps... The following are primarily armor maps:

Kashan Desert
Zatar Wetlands
Daqing Oilfields
Al Kufrah Oilfields

4 maps with primary focus on tanks, so if you dont like tanks dont play on those maps.

[Zybon]

I do find it strange that there are not TOW Humvees on Kashan (or the other armor maps.) Maybe because there wouldn't be an MEC equivalent?

By the way, he was saying that the C4 was pathetic for being so weak, not that the Devs are pathetic...

[Tartantyco]

-Having served as a Combat Engineer I might have some valuable input here.

1. HAT's get snatched up, and who knows where the hell they go. They're not hitting armor. I've yet to be able to allocate a kit and use the HAT. That said, it may actually work. But you can't get em, so it makes them worthless for the most part.

-This is player-related so only the can fix this. Lets hope for some sanity to pour into the servers soon. I do think there should be three HAT crews though.

2. LAT's don't do anything to tanks. I've hit a tank twice on the side armor and nothing seemed to be to dented. If you're at range, well that's even worse, the RPG I was using was wildly inaccurate at anything over 50m. They take forever to reload (Only if you have a rifleman nearby to supply ammo) and once you get that reload that's it. It's tough as hell to get close too cause tanks and APC's have super zoom guns too.

-It's Light Anti-Tank, emphasis on Light. It's for APCs and other lightly armoured vehicles.

3. C4 packs - Several times I've snuck up on an APC and tacked one o' these babies onto it and gotten myself to safety to detonate. Didn't kill it. Slapped one straight onto the back door, and one on the rear right armor. Both times, it detonated, but failed to destroy it outright. It lasted a good minute while people jumped out and started killing, and finally burned down. Haven't even TRIED to stick one o' these on a tank, as it is almost impossible to get around a tank to do so.

-With a lump of C4 no bigger than a gum pack you can blow an I-beam in half, even if you just slap it on. The pack in the game looks to be something like 3 kg, that will decimate anything it comes into contact with. So yes, C4 is definitely too weak in the game.

4. Mines - Make it so that combat engineers can bury em. They should also get 3 so that they can mine an area and make it effectively dangerous. As it is, tanks and APC's just drive around em, and ignore em cause they can see em.

-It takes anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes to properly bury a mine so for that to be implemented there should be a considerable delay when doing so. And a mine like the one in the game weighs about 6 kg(At least), you don't lug that around on the battlefield.

-I'll get back to you, gotta go.

[wazza_ni]

With a lump of C4 no bigger than a gum pack you can blow an I-beam in half, even if you just slap it on. The pack in the game looks to be something like 3 kg, that will decimate anything it comes into contact with. So yes, C4 is definitely too weak in the game.

Wholeheartedly agree. If the Engi is restricted to 1 "C4 sticky", it should pack more of a punch than in currently does.

It feels like your sticking a cherry bomb to a tank at the minute...

[mrmong]

you shouldnt even be able to get that close to a tank, quit yer bitchin

[wazza_ni]

you shouldnt even be able to get that close to a tank, quit yer bitchin

Any why is that? Do tanks have an alarm that goes off when enemy infantry get within 20 metres?

Why shouldnt someone be able to get close to a tank? Ive been in many instances where ive managed to get in a tanks blind spot and slap on a C4. Its called stealth.

Next time try thinking before you post

[ZZEZ]

Any why is that? Do tanks have an alarm that goes off when enemy infantry get within 20 metres?

Why shouldnt someone be able to get close to a tank? Ive been in many instances where ive managed to get in a tanks blind spot and slap on a C4. Its called stealth.

Next time try thinking before you post

I think hes referring to RL, as IRL they have a system that detect infantry...at least the Israeli MBT.

I have successfully killed tanks as Combat Engineer..just sneak up on em..throw the Mine behind the tank's tracks, put C4..get some distance..blow the C4 - the tank will most likely back off in to the Mine and explode.

[wazza_ni]

I think hes referring to RL, as IRL they have a system that detect infantry...at least the Israeli MBT.

In that case my attempt at sarcasm in my first line now seems rather foolhardy so i apologise mrmong.

Im not in anyway asking for C4 to completely destroy a tank, but Id like to think that a C4 on the tracks would disable it.

[Zybon]

you shouldnt even be able to get that close to a tank, quit yer bitchin

You're right, you SHOULDN'T be able to, but you CAN since you have foolish 1 man tank crews that roll away from their support and into urban environments. If they had a driver as well, the driver could be looking around for infantry. If you're gonna man your tank alone, without a driver, then you deserve the consequences of having infantry all over you.

[Eyre]

I respect the Dev's vision of an idealized PR where all players know what is going on and even act in a manner befitting real life. Furthermore, I respect their decision to make the game how THEY want it, and to incorporate game elements that encourage players to play it 'the right way'. That being said, there are parts of the game that don't work as well as we'd all like when it comes to smacktards on public servers. There are things that get done in the game that, while not completely realistic, happen because there is no good (read: immediate) alternative.

I agree that there are times when, while playing as infantry, the only sensible thing to do is to advance on an enemy tank and try to take it out with C4 and mines. It may not be realistic, but do you sit and let the armor take out all friendly infantry and assets, or attempt to at least distract it? I have played rounds where the HAT was not available for some reason - maybe some asshat has it off in a corner of the map, maybe he got killed and the enemy has it. I've also played rounds where after I grab a HAT kit, I cannot get anyone from my team to resupply me, or some jerk will steal the vehicle I'm using to get ammo. End result: respawn as engineer and try to sneak up on the armor if it is dumb enough to sit still in an area I can reach.

On the whole, I like the move towards bigger maps (except, off the top of my head, the new EJOD which I once loved but now despise, but that is for another thread) and making tanks into death machines that are difficult to take down - the standard infantry squad SHOULD fear a tank and be wiped out if they are caught out of cover. But that doesn't mean a quick thinking squad is not going to try to get some explosives planted on a tank if it rolls past their position/exposes its blind spots to them. Any tank driver that places his weapon in a position where it can easily be reached by infantry deserves what's coming.

In conclusion, I feel C4 should be more powerful. It should at least set an APC on fire (forcing a bail out) and damage a tank into the realm of possibly knocking its track off/disabling the turret (I'm not sure how that game logic works, only that damage is not location specific - so I assume it has to do with the % of damage to the tank causing a % chance that the tank will become disabled). If nothing else it encourages tanks to stay away from infantry in close quarters and engage them at range in a supporting role.

But then, I'm a player who enjoys this awesome game and will be happy with whatever the Devs do with their mod.