I agree. The tactical map ('M') is still going to give too much information, but at least you have to stop and check it every now and then so you're not being constantly fed up to the millisecond, real-time information.Suicide Commando wrote:I think you'll find its completely natural for discussions to go in different directions, its normal.
Anyway, yes hud needs to go as far as possible and the corner map needs to go all together. If you can't see where your team mates are on the map (as in real life) then you'll have to work closer with them and as a team
Realism HUD Design
-
Gunfighter34ID
- Posts: 54
- Joined: 2005-11-28 18:01
-
Lifetaker
- Posts: 178
- Joined: 2005-09-16 00:43
Most definitely remove the mini map in the corner. It's been so long since I've been able to play PR,=( that I can't remember if the uav or satelite scan features are still in play. Also, I never play commander, so that may explain why I don't know. If the uav and/or sat scans are to remain, then we need the 'M' map, if not, there's no real use for it since the maps aren't that big that you're gonna get lost. So who cares if it's there or not.
Oh yeah, as far as a little image of my sodier or "life bar" or something. Why? If I'm huffing and puffing from taking a hit or two, I know I need the medic or I don't have long to go. That's plenty good the way it is. And I think there is a mag count in the bottom right already, right?
Oh yeah, as far as a little image of my sodier or "life bar" or something. Why? If I'm huffing and puffing from taking a hit or two, I know I need the medic or I don't have long to go. That's plenty good the way it is. And I think there is a mag count in the bottom right already, right?
Last edited by Lifetaker on 2005-12-04 00:00, edited 1 time in total.
-
Gunfighter34ID
- Posts: 54
- Joined: 2005-11-28 18:01
Hoak, have I found the game for you. I was reading a review on Gamespot today about the new King Kong PC game that's coming out. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how you would structure a frickin' PC game about King Kong. Anyway, this game is about 3/4 or more FPS (the rest of the time it's a 3PS time game where you play as Kong) but in the review it talks about how there is no HUD whatsoever. Apparently, they use a flashing border to let you know when you're taking damage, but it has a feature where you find cover and you'll eventually self-heal like CoD2. There's also no reticule for the weapons, you have to aim instinctively.
Sounds a little ridiculous but the reviewer raved about the system and about how it made the game so much more cinematic. Of course, with BF2/PRMM we'd still have the iron sights to aim and we'd have to rely on the medics for healing, but this is obviously a system that can work, but is working and garnering great reviews from trade pubs like Gamespot. Oh, and the way they handle the ammo thing is your guy will simply say to himself "I've got plenty of ammo left for this weapon" or "I think I'm starting to run a bit low" at the appropriate times or something like that, if I remember correctly. Some variation of all these methods could be used to get rid of the HUD in PRMM, as we've already discussed. Just thought you might be interested in knowing this idea has been adopted with good results.
Just go to http://www.gamespot.com and type in "King Kong" in the search bar to find the game and get to the review if you're interested.
Sounds a little ridiculous but the reviewer raved about the system and about how it made the game so much more cinematic. Of course, with BF2/PRMM we'd still have the iron sights to aim and we'd have to rely on the medics for healing, but this is obviously a system that can work, but is working and garnering great reviews from trade pubs like Gamespot. Oh, and the way they handle the ammo thing is your guy will simply say to himself "I've got plenty of ammo left for this weapon" or "I think I'm starting to run a bit low" at the appropriate times or something like that, if I remember correctly. Some variation of all these methods could be used to get rid of the HUD in PRMM, as we've already discussed. Just thought you might be interested in knowing this idea has been adopted with good results.
Just go to http://www.gamespot.com and type in "King Kong" in the search bar to find the game and get to the review if you're interested.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
Yes, I have King Kong, but the Studio that put King Koing together and I are not the only Game Developers that know FPS, 3PS, and Adventure Games don't need a HUD, and the realism issues, and limitations of FPP.
There are a slew of other games that have little or no immediate HUD, and even more are in progress... Just a short list from memory:
· Escape From Butcher Bay (FPS No HUD)
· Stubbs the Zombie in Rebel Without a Pulse (FPS No HUD)
· VSB·1 (FPS Tactical Combat Simulator No HUD Option)
· You Are Empty (FPS No HUD)
There are a plenty more but I can't remember names or URLs off the top of my head; FPS Adventure games especially are adopting the HUDless approach.
As I said this is not new and it's not my idea; it just happens to be a subject I've looked into as a conscientious Game Developer. Enormous investments in research into qualitative effects of HUD overlays and 1st & 3rd Person Perspective are the results of Land Combat Simulator and weapon system HUD R&D by the U.S. Navy and Army...
There's a slew of documentation on the subject that can be found in any Public or University Library that has a reasonably complete U.S. Government Documents Collection -- as the U.S. Printing Office vomits mountains of documentation on any virtually any area of research Taxpayer dollars are being spent. There are even optical illustrations that demonstrate the dystopic effects of HUD overlays clearly -- this is no vague, guessy/feely thing....
It would appear that the early RSE (Red Storm Entertainment for those late to the scene) Developers (many no longer with RSE) may even have been aware of the effect and consequences in the Development of their early, and some might argue their best games (and many in the Military still argue are more realistic then VSB·1, or the Army's Unreal Warfare TS in spite of R6/RS age and warts): Raimbow Six, and Rogue Spear...
R6 and RS could be run completely HUDless offered 3rd Person Perspective as an option, and offered one approach to HUD design that's talked about in the literature as having a lesser impact on the depth perception/depth cue hit -- i.e. their 'HUD Dashboard' approach... There was a lot of consultancy going on at that time between RSE and the U.S. Military so it doesn't suprise me in the least if the early RSE team at least appeared to know more what was going on in tactical simulation via games.There was even a special version of R6/RS developed as a tactical trainer along the lines of the THQ game Full Spectrum Warrior, but more along the lines of individual initiative in squad maneuver.
Δ
There are a slew of other games that have little or no immediate HUD, and even more are in progress... Just a short list from memory:
· Escape From Butcher Bay (FPS No HUD)
· Stubbs the Zombie in Rebel Without a Pulse (FPS No HUD)
· VSB·1 (FPS Tactical Combat Simulator No HUD Option)
· You Are Empty (FPS No HUD)
There are a plenty more but I can't remember names or URLs off the top of my head; FPS Adventure games especially are adopting the HUDless approach.
As I said this is not new and it's not my idea; it just happens to be a subject I've looked into as a conscientious Game Developer. Enormous investments in research into qualitative effects of HUD overlays and 1st & 3rd Person Perspective are the results of Land Combat Simulator and weapon system HUD R&D by the U.S. Navy and Army...
There's a slew of documentation on the subject that can be found in any Public or University Library that has a reasonably complete U.S. Government Documents Collection -- as the U.S. Printing Office vomits mountains of documentation on any virtually any area of research Taxpayer dollars are being spent. There are even optical illustrations that demonstrate the dystopic effects of HUD overlays clearly -- this is no vague, guessy/feely thing....
It would appear that the early RSE (Red Storm Entertainment for those late to the scene) Developers (many no longer with RSE) may even have been aware of the effect and consequences in the Development of their early, and some might argue their best games (and many in the Military still argue are more realistic then VSB·1, or the Army's Unreal Warfare TS in spite of R6/RS age and warts): Raimbow Six, and Rogue Spear...
R6 and RS could be run completely HUDless offered 3rd Person Perspective as an option, and offered one approach to HUD design that's talked about in the literature as having a lesser impact on the depth perception/depth cue hit -- i.e. their 'HUD Dashboard' approach... There was a lot of consultancy going on at that time between RSE and the U.S. Military so it doesn't suprise me in the least if the early RSE team at least appeared to know more what was going on in tactical simulation via games.There was even a special version of R6/RS developed as a tactical trainer along the lines of the THQ game Full Spectrum Warrior, but more along the lines of individual initiative in squad maneuver.
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-04 03:15, edited 1 time in total.
-
Mad Max
- Posts: 574
- Joined: 2005-04-26 01:27
Hidden & Dangerous 2 had a great hud system. If you didn't want it, you could toggle it on and off, and change how much was shown with a simple press of a button. It was much better on the darker missions to have it off all together so it didn't confuse yours eyes because of the contrast of being almost pitch black with the bright almost white hud making the bit around it look more washed and blured (well, as if it had a halo).
That game is just awesome in so many ways, I really wished they made mod tools for it, but oh well, going off topic here.
That game is just awesome in so many ways, I really wished they made mod tools for it, but oh well, going off topic here.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
Yeah, I have to agree Mad Max that Hidden & Dangerous had a nice HUD system and overall was a masterwork in Tactical Realism...
Regarding Developer comment; of course I'd like to see design ideas I value incorporated in the mod, but more then that I'd like to see some manner of 'Developer Diary' or perhaps .plan files that gave PRM Fans some idear of where the Developers wanted the Mod to go in an overall sense, and where the priorities are...
Δ
Regarding Developer comment; of course I'd like to see design ideas I value incorporated in the mod, but more then that I'd like to see some manner of 'Developer Diary' or perhaps .plan files that gave PRM Fans some idear of where the Developers wanted the Mod to go in an overall sense, and where the priorities are...
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-08 12:14, edited 1 time in total.
-
Evilhomer
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: 2004-08-03 12:00
For us the aesthetic design of the HUD was one of the most challenging aspects of the minimod/mod. The challenging idea was to incorproate only the bare bones of information required to play the game. If you consider that the principle of computer games is that you react to information you recieve, and take the necessary manouvers. However, by decreasing the amount of information given to the player, it creates a more challenging game. Now, from what I gather the general view is here, aspects of the HUD need removing, such as the minimap. However, if you take something away, you need to put something in to replace it. Realistically, taking away the mini-map could create more problems. BF2 depends on the minimap to allow players to react to the changing battlefield, i.e, who controls which points and such. We have looked into many ideas about what to do in regards to the minimap and such, and for us, we felt that it should be kept in until we can find a viable replacment for it. Now, however, judging from what has been written earlier on, the removal of the minimap and focus more on the main map could have some pro's. For instance, if it is possible to code, we would have a OS style map, much like you would find if you bought a map of a local town, with grid refrences and symbols, rather than having an overhead photo of the map. Next, we also consider that by adding the grid refrence it could make the minimap redundant, and would force players to use thier radios far more. However, by removing the minimap, it could cause players to complain about not knowing what is going on around them.
In regards to a dev diary these sort of things are in the works. We are planning on having more frequent news releases to you aswell as more information being portrayed to you.
In regards to a dev diary these sort of things are in the works. We are planning on having more frequent news releases to you aswell as more information being portrayed to you.
-
Suicide Commando
- Posts: 75
- Joined: 2005-12-01 16:05
If you don't remove the minimap could you at least cut all the **** off it such as the border? In my opinion it takes up to much of the screen even on a large screen its annoying to have. Something smaller and simpler like the Counter Strike map (but with images rather than green with dots) would be better.
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
I think the Mini-Map and stamina bar are complete **** in a mod of this caliber. Middle-of-the-road, half-assed, or half-way measures are a waste of time and resources better applied to other initiatives that actually separate PRM from BF2, truly make it different, more realistic, and appealing on that basis.
In my not so humble but professional opinion -- if you acceede to too much compromise in making PRM like BF2 there will be little incentive for people not only to try it, but to sustain their interest...
Removing HUD overlays is not a sacrifice: all HUD elements are completely rendundant with other features already in the game, hell you can have the full Tactical Map up with the alpha transparency cranked up and still have a very arcade experience with more real-time information, situational awareness, and weapon control then you could possibly have in real life handling a rifle, map, GPS, compass, and radios...
With respect to applying a Grid-Map treatment to the current Tactical Map; I would suggest just editing the current map assets in PhotoShop, removing all color to make them look like realistic Satellite Reconnaissance photo maps, and adding a simple coarse alpha-numeric tatical grid (as coarse as pssible to make cooridnates easy to learn* -- here's a crude example of how this was done for a Ghost Recon mod:
All the other telemetry can be easily offered in a much more tactically significant, effective (as far as game-play quality), and realistic context directly on the Tactical Map: numbers for example can be added to the icons comporting precise capture progress etc. (if that's really needed), weapon and load-out status as described by others etc., etc....
This is very straightforward stuff to do that will have a lot of positive impact on game quality and immersiveness discussed in my first post and expanded on by other posters in the thread.
Δ
In my not so humble but professional opinion -- if you acceede to too much compromise in making PRM like BF2 there will be little incentive for people not only to try it, but to sustain their interest...
Removing HUD overlays is not a sacrifice: all HUD elements are completely rendundant with other features already in the game, hell you can have the full Tactical Map up with the alpha transparency cranked up and still have a very arcade experience with more real-time information, situational awareness, and weapon control then you could possibly have in real life handling a rifle, map, GPS, compass, and radios...
With respect to applying a Grid-Map treatment to the current Tactical Map; I would suggest just editing the current map assets in PhotoShop, removing all color to make them look like realistic Satellite Reconnaissance photo maps, and adding a simple coarse alpha-numeric tatical grid (as coarse as pssible to make cooridnates easy to learn* -- here's a crude example of how this was done for a Ghost Recon mod:
All the other telemetry can be easily offered in a much more tactically significant, effective (as far as game-play quality), and realistic context directly on the Tactical Map: numbers for example can be added to the icons comporting precise capture progress etc. (if that's really needed), weapon and load-out status as described by others etc., etc....
This is very straightforward stuff to do that will have a lot of positive impact on game quality and immersiveness discussed in my first post and expanded on by other posters in the thread.
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-08 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
-
Kos'aaK
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 2005-11-18 15:53
Agree. I play @ 1600x1200 and it's still too big 4 me. IF it has to be there at least let it be basic info, clearly readable, not so colorful and small as possible..Suicide Commando wrote:If you don't remove the minimap could you at least cut all the **** off it such as the border? In my opinion it takes up to much of the screen even on a large screen its annoying to have...
Anyways, still think it could be removed completely. How about being toggleable?
OK or like this - you'd have the mini-map, health and ammo on the HUD - toggleable. If you'd toggle it, all HUD would be removed and integrated into the main-map (except the mini-map of course, that would dissapear). You'd have 2 modes only, how about it?
Last edited by Kos'aaK on 2005-12-08 15:43, edited 1 time in total.
-
Suicide Commando
- Posts: 75
- Joined: 2005-12-01 16:05
-
Figisaacnewton
- Posts: 1895
- Joined: 2004-11-23 05:27
In my view, the HUD only has to tell us what we would be able to know instantly (nearly uncounsiouscly instantly) in real life.
In BF2, I think that would consist of
clips left (you better know that)
tickets left (no such thing as tickets in real life, but its needed for the game)
fire mode ( unless we can code a button that makes you look at the gun to see what fire mode it is switched to, we need a fire mode indicator)
stamina and health are maybes... they need to be more vague. You never know that you half 88 points left untill you die. You should probably just have 3 or 4 levels:
1 Health
2 Shot once or twice
3 Severly wounded
4 Incapacitated/Dead
same with stamina, i think it should go from fine, to kinda tired, to really tired. this could most likely be coded by breathign sounds from the player though.
about a minimap, axe it.
give all players a standard 'weapon' that allows them to put away thier weapon, and take out a map, where right clicking allows you to view a detailed, tottaly flat view map.
squad leaders would have something similar, but it would show what used to be the active minimap instead of the flat static map.
ther'es my view(s)
In BF2, I think that would consist of
clips left (you better know that)
tickets left (no such thing as tickets in real life, but its needed for the game)
fire mode ( unless we can code a button that makes you look at the gun to see what fire mode it is switched to, we need a fire mode indicator)
stamina and health are maybes... they need to be more vague. You never know that you half 88 points left untill you die. You should probably just have 3 or 4 levels:
1 Health
2 Shot once or twice
3 Severly wounded
4 Incapacitated/Dead
same with stamina, i think it should go from fine, to kinda tired, to really tired. this could most likely be coded by breathign sounds from the player though.
about a minimap, axe it.
give all players a standard 'weapon' that allows them to put away thier weapon, and take out a map, where right clicking allows you to view a detailed, tottaly flat view map.
squad leaders would have something similar, but it would show what used to be the active minimap instead of the flat static map.
ther'es my view(s)
-
hoak
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 2005-06-23 06:40
Fair enough, and a reasonable standard for any serious Tactical Realism game; but you would not "unconsciously instantly" know:Figisaacnewton wrote:In my view, the HUD only has to tell us what we would be able to know instantly (nearly uncounsiouscly instantly) in real life.
1) How many magazines (none of the weapons in BF2 or planned for PRM employ "clips") you had left, unless you were counting, as you should in game, it's not "unconscious instant" knowledge, neither can you look at a your vest and "know instantly"...
In the real world if you aren't acutely conscious of managing (counting) your munitions and you run out, you'll be reaching for something that isn't there -- this already happens in BF2/PRM just like the real world and needs no HUD to tell you...
2) Tickets are an abstraction of capturing, occupying and holding real estate; the objective real world standard of whether territory, a specific geographical urban area etc. are under your control is not instant knowledge...
In the real world squad leaders, and commanders communicate to corroborate control and reinforcement of a 'line' -- this takes time, having to look at a capture bar or ticket display on your Tactical Map would still be fantastically faster then anything remotely possible in the real world...
3) Whether injury by being hit by bullets, or shrapnel and spauled debris is casual or mortal is rarely if ever "unconsciously instantly" knowable, in fact may people don't even know they've been hit by bullets for up to fifteen minutes -- that's longer then many BF2/PRM rounds. Many fall and bruse their knee and think they're going to die, many are eviscerated by .50 cal ammunition and nearly cut in half and keep fighting -- there is no "knowing" instant or otherwise IRL...
In the real world if you are critically injured you fall down and probably won't get up without immediate medical attention, or ever again; this already happens in BF2/PRM and doesn't need a magic damage display...
4) Highly trained special/elite forces may know exactly how far and how fast they can sprint on certain terrain, with a specific load-out, under specific weather conditions -- but even that is typically only under the conditions of isolated training exercise... Under real life and death circumstances it may be much further, or a lot shorter...
In the real world of war (or otherwise) anyone sprinting can tell their stamina is shot because they just can't do it any more -- BF2/PRM already has this feature and if you can't tell you're not able to sprint, you probably shouldn't even be playing BF2... As for recovery time -- wait for the guy to stop panting... How far you can sprint, rest, and sprint again is as vague in the real world as it would be in BF2/PRM without the magic stamina bar...
Granted in games we need simplified analogs and/or abstracts of the real world -- but many of these simplifications have reached a virtually stagnant state in FPS realism gaming because of stubbornness, laziness, or general resistance to change. Many of the most popular games got where they are by being original and different...
Δ
Last edited by hoak on 2005-12-09 10:07, edited 1 time in total.
-
CatTail
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 2005-12-06 21:16
-
GRB
- Posts: 475
- Joined: 2005-11-01 20:05
1) How many magazines (none of the weapons in BF2 or planned for PRM employ "clips") you had left, unless you were counting, as you should in game, it's not "unconscious instant" knowledge, neither can you look at a your vest and "know instantly"...
Agreed. I dont think Mag counts should be visible either. From a realism stand point it's ignorant to have something such as that. There's just one problem with that in the game and it's quite simple really. If you dont display the amount of magazines, you wont know how many you started out with. Therefor counting anything would be quite impossible. Implying a predetermined knowledge of how many mags there are is also impossible. Think of a brand new player to the PROJECT REALITY Mod. That player isn't going to know anything. He/she may get very frustrated not knowing how many mags they start with let alone how many they've used.
If there's a way around this, then I'm all for it...
Maybe somehow displaying the amount of mags on the kit selection screen?
2) Tickets are an abstraction of capturing, occupying and holding real estate; the objective real world standard of whether territory, a specific geographical urban area etc. are under your control is not instant knowledge...
I agree with this as well. I dont think the flag capture status OR the tickets should be displayed. The battles should seem to end more realistically, not like, "oh, all my numbers are gone, games over.." Now I'm also aware that there are only three ways to end a match.
- Tickets.
- Timed Matches.
- Not having uncapturable bases. (personally I think this would work out nicely.)
3) Whether injury by being hit by bullets, or shrapnel and spauled debris is casual or mortal is rarely if ever "unconsciously instantly" knowable, in fact may people don't even know they've been hit by bullets for up to fifteen minutes -- that's longer then many BF2/PRM rounds. Many fall and bruse their knee and think they're going to die, many are eviscerated by .50 cal ammunition and nearly cut in half and keep fighting -- there is no "knowing" instant or otherwise IRL...
I am unclear as to what exactly it is you are implying should be done here...You saying that there should be no "hit effect"?
Realistically speaking I think you would know when you're hit by a bullet. You would feel it. The initial impact of the bullet would be like someone shoving you. (Movies tend to dismay the reality of being shot.)
4) Highly trained special/elite forces may know exactly how far and how fast they can sprint on certain terrain, with a specific load-out, under specific weather conditions -- but even that is typically only under the conditions of isolated training exercise... Under real life and death circumstances it may be much further, or a lot shorter...
I agree, the stamina bar is unneccissary IMO. I say completely remove it.
Agreed. I dont think Mag counts should be visible either. From a realism stand point it's ignorant to have something such as that. There's just one problem with that in the game and it's quite simple really. If you dont display the amount of magazines, you wont know how many you started out with. Therefor counting anything would be quite impossible. Implying a predetermined knowledge of how many mags there are is also impossible. Think of a brand new player to the PROJECT REALITY Mod. That player isn't going to know anything. He/she may get very frustrated not knowing how many mags they start with let alone how many they've used.
If there's a way around this, then I'm all for it...
Maybe somehow displaying the amount of mags on the kit selection screen?
2) Tickets are an abstraction of capturing, occupying and holding real estate; the objective real world standard of whether territory, a specific geographical urban area etc. are under your control is not instant knowledge...
I agree with this as well. I dont think the flag capture status OR the tickets should be displayed. The battles should seem to end more realistically, not like, "oh, all my numbers are gone, games over.." Now I'm also aware that there are only three ways to end a match.
- Tickets.
- Timed Matches.
- Not having uncapturable bases. (personally I think this would work out nicely.)
3) Whether injury by being hit by bullets, or shrapnel and spauled debris is casual or mortal is rarely if ever "unconsciously instantly" knowable, in fact may people don't even know they've been hit by bullets for up to fifteen minutes -- that's longer then many BF2/PRM rounds. Many fall and bruse their knee and think they're going to die, many are eviscerated by .50 cal ammunition and nearly cut in half and keep fighting -- there is no "knowing" instant or otherwise IRL...
I am unclear as to what exactly it is you are implying should be done here...You saying that there should be no "hit effect"?
Realistically speaking I think you would know when you're hit by a bullet. You would feel it. The initial impact of the bullet would be like someone shoving you. (Movies tend to dismay the reality of being shot.)
4) Highly trained special/elite forces may know exactly how far and how fast they can sprint on certain terrain, with a specific load-out, under specific weather conditions -- but even that is typically only under the conditions of isolated training exercise... Under real life and death circumstances it may be much further, or a lot shorter...
I agree, the stamina bar is unneccissary IMO. I say completely remove it.
[COLOR=silver]------[FONT=Lucida Console]|[/COLOR][/FONT]U.S. Department Of Defense - Latest[FONT=Lucida Console][COLOR=black] News|------[/FONT][/COLOR]
-
Kos'aaK
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 2005-11-18 15:53
