(temporary) removal of the sniper kit

Hardtman · Post by **Hardtman** » 2007-09-19 17:00

Ok, one thing first off: I am aware you devs are doing your best and some things just can't be done or are simply too much work to be worth it. So, this is not meant to be a rant against you work but rather an attempt to make this game better and even save you some work with it.

So,having covered my butt this way

, let me explain why I think such a measure is necessary:

Firstly of course, it would put all the guys who just want to be one of those badass elite sniper ghosts to better use at the front. Of course there a quite a few people who use it how it is meant to.

Or, should I rather say, they only try to? And hey, I can't blame them, for they just can't.

There are just two reasons for this, and ironically it seems that they count among the hardest issues to get right:

The draw distance of kits
The draw distance for grass

Just this two issues turn a soldier whose greatest advantage over his enemy is correct concealment into yet another rifleman with just more range.
The only concealment that works on ranges at the moment is total concealment, meaning that if you can see the enemy, he can see you, and if he can't see you, you can't see him either. This virtually negates the snipers ability to carefully pick his target and take his time to shoot.
The front hillside, usually a great position for a sniper, is now a deathtrap since you're sitting in the open without any cover or concealment.

Until now, the sniper kit most of the time proved to be more of a nuisance than an assistance, ingame as well as out here in the forums.

So I ask you devs: Please remove this kit. At least in my opinion this is a step that will prevent problems/work in the future, might actually improve the gameplay and doesn't even require work from your side.

I'm sure this idea will be disliked by quite a few people, but in my opinion most of them will benefit of more time at the front

.

But just in case, I got my equipment right here:

Post by **Rudd** » 2007-09-19 17:18

Valid point, but another rifleman with better range can still be used tactically- despite technical limitations that make it less than we'd like it.

If they are gonna be removed tho, i'd urge the devs to keep them in maps like seven gates where the sniper can really use his range advantage and use the trees for cover

Harrod200 · Post by **Harrod200** » 2007-09-19 17:20

/agree

Until the issues of camoflage and grass can be sorted, squads should use a DM and snipers should be suspended.

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2007-09-19 17:31

I still find the sniper kit usefull in some situations.
Like you said, it's basically a rifleman with a higher zoom. It's very usefull for covering certain areas (for example a flag).
If you have a good vantage point you can easily bring down the first few enemies that attack the flag. After that they probably know where you are and things get more tricky, but if you are far enough you should still be able to kill a few more or at least make sure they stay outside the flag radius.

And to be honest having that 1 or 2 guys sniping isn't something that bad. It takes 2 guys away from the main force but it's only a very small amount.

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2007-09-19 18:25

Yeah I think certain maps it should see the light of day. But obviously the same should apply for kits like H-AT and such. I think I suggested/saw a suggestion for kit limits based on the map been played, and one of the devs said they were thinking about it.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-09-19 20:54

Ive never noticed enough bad from having one or two snipers on my team. If they want to go sniper, just dont do it in my squad. Heck, sometimes my squad will have a sniper and we do it the old Russian way of having him right up with the squad. Kinda like the DM, but even more range. Anyway, Im all for fixing the concealment issue, but I dont think taking it out or now will really do that much... someone could always just camp with the ACOG or G3A3s scope (whatever it is)

Ragni<RangersPL> · Post by **Ragni<RangersPL>** » 2007-09-20 10:56

How about giving desert camo to a sniper on the desert maps?

Hardtman · Post by **Hardtman** » 2007-09-26 19:53

Ok, sorry that the reply took so long, I was kinda busy lately

.

Some of you said that the sniper in the role of a rifleman with enhanced range is still valuable.
Well, but we already have a kit that is exactly meant for this role: The Designated Marksman. Although I don't have first-hand experiences here, from what I could recollect a sniper team rarely, if ever, fights shoulder-by-shoulder with conventional troops.
So from a reality based point of view the use of the sniper that at the time is more or less enforced just isn't right, this would be one of the reasons to remove it.
2 People do not seem to be much, but especially when all the MBT's,APC's and Helo's are used, there are not many people left over for infantry.
Say, we have 32 people on our side. Now we have two MBT's, two APC's, one Attack Helo and one two transport choppers.
Shoop da woop, depending on how much people are manning those things at worst 12 people are gone. For this example let's just say there are 10 people busy manning those vehicles. So, only 22 People remaining. This makes for 3 full Infantry Squads and one with 4 people.
And if you take just one guy away, the last squad will be impaired concerning the availability of requestables. On more, and the squad is nearly useless as a fighting unit on it's own.
Assuming the two snipers will make around 15 kills each, so at best they take 30 tickets from the enemy, and that over the whole round.
Would they fight with the one last squad, they could have provided full cover two all directions, and so maybe eliminate just the one guy who stumbled upon them as they capped a flag and so saved their SL, which in turn would have lead to a capture of that CP, and so taking easily 60 Tickets away from the enemy as the fight continues.

Ok,this is rather academical, but still: 6 People are nearly always more effective than 4 and 2 guys. A capped flag is about always more beneficial towards the victory than 15 or so kills are.

There are maps, like Seven Gates, where a sniper can actually be used in a good way. They can stay on those maps. But in my opinion the majority of the maps leave no room for such use of the sniper.

I bet that the dev's have terribly long to-do list, and taking away one issue could help a bit. They could just disable the kit, and maybe, when we are closing in on 1.0 and somehow have the technical means to realize a real sniper kit, then they could pull it out again, provided it'd still fit into the game then.

And, last but not least, this would scare those people away who always take the sniper kit, and always camp at the same predictable spots.
When such guy then discovers PR and asks where his beloved sniper kit is, the answer: "there is none" would either scare him away, or maybe, with some luck, he would be interested enough to learn this game in all it's facets and so become a valuable teamplayer.

Phew, even I don't really now why I am so eager to see this kit gone, but somehow it always feels wrong when I see snipers running around....

And if someone dares to try to answer with something like: "You only have been pwnz0red by leet snipers too often", I will invent a device that allow me to give him a good beating-over-IP

.

Post by **Jaymz** » 2007-09-26 22:19

Having kits render at long range is going to be looked at I believe. Could have an effect on performance though so will need lots of testing.

OiSkout · Post by **OiSkout** » 2007-09-27 06:57

You guys probably thought about this, but what about decreasing zoom of other weapons?

Although it would help if I knew what the current zoom mechanism was based off of. For instance, is a non-scoped assault rifle 2x normal? Or even 1.5x?

But it would probably mess up balance for armor and the sort.

Winterfrost · Post by **Winterfrost** » 2007-09-27 08:28

I disagree I usually find some type of object to hide behind or camouflage myself if i don't I get shot and I deserved it sniper kits work for those who know how to use it which is reason enough to keep it in

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-09-27 08:39

Add one more Marksman into the pool and get rid of snipers.

I fully support this.

General Dragosh · Post by **General Dragosh** » 2007-09-27 11:55

Me too

Farks · Post by **Farks** » 2007-09-27 13:46

I agree with most of the things beeing said here. At least the sniper kit could be totally removed from the following maps:

* Al Basrah - The fighting on this map should be focused on the city, where marksmen are more valuable sharpshooters. The Mosin can still be a pick-up for the Insurgurents though.
* Al Kufrah Oilfield - This map is clearly made for armour and mechanized infantry. The sniper doesn't fulfill any role here.
* Assault on Mestia - I'm not really sure about this one. But the map is pretty small and do not offer many good sniping spots.
* Bi Ming - Too dark and designed for infantry.
* Gulf of Oman WAC - The enviorment on this map is not made for sniping.
* Helmand Province - Too small and too low viewdistance.
* Hills of Hamgyong - Too small and clearly a "riflesquad v.s riflesquad" map.
* Operation Ghost Train - Too low viewdistance.
* Operation Pheonix - Citymap, marksmen are more valuable here.
* Street - Waaaaaaaaaaaay toooooooooooooo smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall.
* Sunset City - Same as Operation Pheonix.

OiSkout · Post by **OiSkout** » 2007-09-27 19:56

Hm, I agree with some of those, but disagree as well. I'm going to skip over maps versus non-conventional armies, because the enemy has almost no zoom. Which means the sniper is even more effective(especially with lack of camo), but in return so is the marksman and rifleman. Also adds to the atmosphere as a sniper however.

Al Kufrah Oilfield - Lots of open ground. Even if it's perfect tanker country, unless one or both teams have good crewman and people who use armor properly, there's going to be a lot of stragglers. Not to mention anywhere past 100m on most flags are pretty open ground, a sniper chilling anywhere can take shots. In my opinion, it's similar to Da Qing(is it even still in rotation?) very good for snipers, but overshadowed by armor.

Gulf of Oman WAC - Um, only problem would be air and armor. Eastern and western parts of the map are perfect for sniping through the elevation differences and easy overwatch of flags. I fully disagree about removing snipers here.

Sunset City - While I believe that marksmen fit the situation better, I have seen snipers do amazingly well. Why is this? Because people assume snipers are going to sit on top of a building. Temple and construction site can easily be defended. I actually saw someone sniping from the crane and no one figured it out for a while. They all assumed he was on some building so they would climb up, he'd spot them easily and bam.

And isn't Hills where UK(USMC now right?) spawned down the hills below with a lot of open ground forcing them to trek north or south in pretty much open ground? As long as the sniper isn't fighting in the middle section of flags itself, it's pretty good shooting country too.

I'm not saying marksmen can't do the same job, but the sniper can be further, and especially as MEC or PLA, it actually can intimidate the enemy(due to the more powerful sound of the sniper rifles compared to their marksman rifles).

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-09-27 21:59

Well, thing on Hills of Hamyong is, that as soon as you pop out of the USMC base, snipers immediately start shooting at you and instead of having to deal with grenades and AT and support fire being thrown at you, one guy with a wtfpwn rifle constantly shoots at you.

Also, snipers should be removed from Sunset, since it's an urban map and has low view distance.

{GD}Ghost · Post by **{GD}Ghost** » 2007-09-27 22:25

My thoughts are this:

In a tactical situation, things are not always going to be neatly laid out for you as far as cover OR concealment. It is the job of the fighting man to manipulate the situation to work to his advantage. If this means finding some other form of cover or concealment, then that is what he is going to have to do.

I agree that the whole issue where the current draw distance works against a sniper instead of in his favor is just plain stupid, but I'm sure that is a flaw in the game engine.

Even thought this is not a "realistic" problem given that grass doesn't disappear at a certain distance, it does represent the challenge of making the environment work for you instead of seeing it as an obstacle. Most maps that have grass, also have trees, rocks, boulders or other terrain features that can be used as concealment. Setting up a sniping position at the highest (or even any high location) point in the terrain is not necessarily always the most tactically sound location. I know that is the first place I look for snipers.

so, I dont' personally think all this "drama" is necessary....but that's just me.

Kruder · Post by **Kruder** » 2007-09-28 10:47

I'd say instead of removing it altogether limit the kit to 1

and make it pickable only from bases,supply crates and APCs,like the HAT...

Hotrod525 · Post by **Hotrod525** » 2007-09-28 11:40

Hardtman wrote:Ok, one thing first off: I am aware you devs are doing your best and some things just can't be done or are simply too much work to be worth it. So, this is not meant to be a rant against you work but rather an attempt to make this game better and even save you some work with it.

So,having covered my butt this way , let me explain why I think such a measure is necessary:

Firstly of course, it would put all the guys who just want to be one of those badass elite sniper ghosts to better use at the front. Of course there a quite a few people who use it how it is meant to.

Or, should I rather say, they only try to? And hey, I can't blame them, for they just can't.

There are just two reasons for this, and ironically it seems that they count among the hardest issues to get right:

The draw distance of kits

The draw distance for grass
Just this two issues turn a soldier whose greatest advantage over his enemy is correct concealment into yet another rifleman with just more range.
The only concealment that works on ranges at the moment is total concealment, meaning that if you can see the enemy, he can see you, and if he can't see you, you can't see him either. This virtually negates the snipers ability to carefully pick his target and take his time to shoot.
The front hillside, usually a great position for a sniper, is now a deathtrap since you're sitting in the open without any cover or concealment.

Until now, the sniper kit most of the time proved to be more of a nuisance than an assistance, ingame as well as out here in the forums.

So I ask you devs: Please remove this kit. At least in my opinion this is a step that will prevent problems/work in the future, might actually improve the gameplay and doesn't even require work from your side.

I'm sure this idea will be disliked by quite a few people, but in my opinion most of them will benefit of more time at the front .

But just in case, I got my equipment right here:

Well, it depend on how the sniper is used, a good sniper whit a good spoter doing TW and using covered fire position can make ALOT OF DAMAGE to enemy... like a Apache whit a good pilot and good gunner can bleed up MEC force...

henno13 · Post by **henno13** » 2007-09-28 15:31

you kidding?