ANOTHER BASRAH CRY!

Post by **Deadfast** » 2007-10-08 19:14

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:who says you "forget" them, its more that you are now not ordered to look for them but your job now is to recapture the VCP

and you may not forget the location of them as a player, you can always remember where they are yourself

It's almost the same.

I still fail to see a point of this idea.

I guess that most of the thread repliers agreed that there's a way too much fighting going on at VCP.
I can already imagine the start of the round if this change would be applied.
"COMA ON TEM!1!!1!1 OMG WTF LATS GET DA VCP SO THEY WONT FIND TEH CACHES !11!1 OMG LOL"
That's not a solution.

About the other things:
Apache = NO
Challenger = Maybe

agentscar · Post by **agentscar** » 2007-10-08 19:52

Maybe they would...Maybe the Vehicle Checkpoint should be turned into an Un-Cap?But personally,I think taking away the ticket bleed from loosing VCP is better...

But yea,No Apache,but maybe on ChallengerII?NO,Challenger II is a must...

(YAY,I'm not the only that thinks that idea does't work out.)

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-10-08 20:01

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:who says you "forget" them, its more that you are now not ordered to look for them but your job now is to recapture the VCP

and you may not forget the location of them as a player, you can always remember where they are yourself

Or don't gain any more intel points, until VCP is under control again?

Jdz · Post by **Jdz** » 2007-10-09 08:15

Without having read the whole thread, I wouldn't be against the idea of a time limit.

"The insurgents have been alerted of the British soldiers and thus have sent the caches out of Basrah"

Something like that, hehe.

ZephyrDraevyn · Post by **ZephyrDraevyn** » 2007-10-09 09:34

Having just read the whole thread, I can come to the following conclusions :

Some people want the Apache, some don't.
Most folk want at least one Challenger II on the Brit side.
Apache would make cache discovery/destruction too easy.
M85 is obscene.
INS Defend Caches -v- INS Assault VCP is a contentious point.

How's this for an alternative then - it deals with some issues, and helps others...

- Bring the Apache in... but make the city and refinery a no-fly zone. Map-wise, it'd be relatively easy to make them out-of-bounds to aircraft (too risky, chance of RPGs etc ?!?)
The Out of Bounds script won't take effect immediately, so zipping over the refinery to get out to the east side of the city would be okay... but hovering over it and searching for a cache is out of the question.

If not the Apache, why not supply a Littlebird Gunship or Minigun Merlin instead ? Transport and Offence....

- Challenger 2 : Spawn one at the start of the map... and another at 20 minutes (at a random location to prevent whoring / camping the tanks), with a 10m respawn time. Allows the initial armour rush to secure VCP, but not have enough to go rampaging around the map.

- VCP ticket bleed : Get rid of it - make VCP uncappable, drop the gametime to 90 minutes, and modify tickets to soemthing like 300:800 Brit:Insurgent. This almost forces the Insurgents to go into a defensive posture, ambushing, funnelling and sneak attacks being prevalent, seeing as they wouldn't be able to out-class the Brits on the open ground... This (to me) is more of the role that I first thought of when I started PR.

- M85 : Just ditch it... or make it spawn once per map load at a random (10 locations?) point and time on the map near a signature wreck or something ? ie. 10 wrecked cars / apcs / helos on the map... it'll spawn near one of them at some point during the map...

Oh well, I've wibbled along about this for a while - over to you 'orrible lot for discussion / disection

Alex6714 · Post by **Alex6714** » 2007-10-09 12:02

Emnyron wrote:Get the `bow back..
It whoud solve the problems with the VCP, as that bird can go "Can It be RAEP time NO plz" on anything/anyone that is in the open..
I mean, the insurgents got that kick-*** sa-7, those super lazer .50 cals, that you dont ever friggin HEAR hittin you...

I played a lot of Al-B in the Beta, Loved it, the Bow was the best thing that happened to that map.
Then, OH noez, The insurgents have to defend and use theyr trucks for defence and not 1337 j11haad !!!111111!one
When it was removed, it became that mad rush to the vcp..

I can say, with what value it holds, that adding two tanks simply will not do it.
Get the `bow back, so they get aircover from those jihad kiddies, and suddenly its no more, "OMGZ RUN FOR THE 1337 WIN of the VCP !!!111one!"

I would also like to see the Apache back in. But make the actual city a no fly zone "out of bounds". Then the VCP will be much harder for the insurgents to cap, they will stay in the city more and the Apache won´t be able to search for caches in the city., leading to more city fights.

What does everyone think about that?

jayceon515 · Post by **jayceon515** » 2007-10-09 13:02

If you are so concerned about apache destroying all the weapon caches
1) simply use the code as when an insurgent destroys a cache he gets instantly killed and gets lots of negative points.
2) make the caches immune to apache chain gun/hydras fire or
3) change the cache material to armor (I think it's impossible to destroy a tank with a heli chain gun) and make them only destroyable by C4 but then you can still destroy the caches with laser guided rockets (still much harder than with the chain gun, especially in the city area).
If the apache gets back to Basrah keep the VCP if not make it uncappable.
This map needs some changes. No matter what you do make it so the fighting will take place in the city and not only around that 30m2 VCP area.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-10-09 13:11

Alex6714 wrote:I would also like to see the Apache back in. But make the actual city a no fly zone "out of bounds".

Then the Merlin would be included in that too, so there goes a decent method of transpo... although i really do like the idea... Who needs to get dropped off in the city anyway? Maybe make it so you can land in the outskirts, but just so you can get dropped off with *some* cover of the city...

This is a great idea, very very good thinking!

ZaZZo · Post by **ZaZZo** » 2007-10-09 13:35

Then we would need a line on the map around the no fly zone

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-10-09 13:39

People would learn quickly where the no fly zone is once the warning guy keeps popping up(just like you learn how close to the enemy uncap you can be). Does it not already draw the red cross lines on the inverted combat zones? Seems dumb that it doesnt, but that would be bf2...

Regardless, people would learn quickly and after a few days/weeks, good usable city outskirts landing zones would be remembered and passed on and then we would have the apache but without the risk of it simply blowing up ALL caches. It could get to ones in the village and MAYBE city outskirts if there were any, but thatd be about it...

I love this idea, and Im surprised its just now coming up!

Flan · Post by **Flan** » 2007-10-09 14:06

Uh no...

I really dont like this idea, limiting the movement of the helicopter to the barren outskirts will defeat its purpose. Its hardly realistic to forcibly disallow flight over the city.

I say add the apache, let it fly wherever it wants and use the fact that the natural layout of cities makes helicopters very vulnerable... you do realise how easy it is to hit a helicopter with an RPG from one of the thousands of windows and rooftops of the buildings and remain hidden? even a few seconds of PKM fire and its at least badly damaged. About the caches - why has noone thought of just hiding them a little better, ie not out in the open, in buildings and underground bunkers - this is also more realistic, who hides weapons in plain view on the rooftops of suburban houses... (I still think theres should be one or two out in the open so the heli has a use).

The current attack helicopters are perfect due to the lack of view stabilisation - they cant fly miles above the battlefield and accurately rain down death while out of reach of any threats. I think unless they drastically change them this would be the perfect plan.

I believe players should have to use their initiative rather than being forced into playing the way others want. Is that wrong of me?

jayceon515 · Post by **jayceon515** » 2007-10-09 14:21

I had played all betas before 0.609 came out. There were 2 apaches in the betas and I hadn't noticed a "rush the VCP" before they were removed from the map. Give the insurgent an extra SA-7, they already have enough pickup trucks with mounted .50cal. Make it just like IRL, if insurgents don't do nothing about the enemy choppers then they deserve to get "raped" by them. 0.5 worked well in this aspect. If the insurgent used SA-7 the USMC A10's and cobras couldn't freely fly over the city and rape everyone on the ground. If SA-7 stayed intacked USMC usually won the round. Same could apply for 0.6 if the apache destroys your caches take him out. If you let it do it then you deserve to lose the round. It's as simple as that.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-10-09 14:21

*edit* in reference to Flan, not directly above me

Ehhh, I see this side too... I was just trying to expand the other more

Although Im sure there are realistic reasons why a helicopter wouldnt be permitted to fly over a city at some point or another... but then again, i dont begin to claim to be a military expert

It is very true though, that the helis are incredibly easy to take out. half the time they fly over and take a burst of fire, and fly back to repair... without accomplishing really anything at all...

Flan · Post by **Flan** » 2007-10-09 14:50

jayceon515 wrote:I had played all betas before 0.609 came out. There were 2 apaches in the betas and I hadn't noticed a "rush the VCP" before they were removed from the map. Give the insurgent an extra SA-7, they already have enough pickup trucks with mounted .50cal. Make it just like IRL, if insurgents don't do nothing about the enemy choppers then they deserve to get "raped" by them. 0.5 worked well in this aspect. If the insurgent used SA-7 the USMC A10's and cobras couldn't freely fly over the city and rape everyone on the ground. If SA-7 stayed intacked USMC usually won the round. Same could apply for 0.6 if the apache destroys your caches take him out. If you let it do it then you deserve to lose the round. It's as simple as that.

[R-MOD]OkitaMakoto wrote:*edit* in reference to Flan, not directly above me

Ehhh, I see this side too... I was just trying to expand the other more

Although Im sure there are realistic reasons why a helicopter wouldnt be permitted to fly over a city at some point or another... but then again, i dont begin to claim to be a military expert

It is very true though, that the helis are incredibly easy to take out. half the time they fly over and take a burst of fire, and fly back to repair... without accomplishing really anything at all...

My points exactly

Btw OkitaMakoto nice work on the BHD map, will there be room for dirtbikes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsY63TROBUw[/youtube]

Alex6714 · Post by **Alex6714** » 2007-10-09 15:28

Flan wrote:Uh no...I really dont like this idea, limiting the movement of the helicopter to the barren outskirts will defeat its purpose. Its hardly realistic to forcibly disallow flight over the city.

Solution: "High insurgent activity in the city of al basrah means that it is too dangerous for choppers to enter. The caches must be destroyed and the city made safe, until then, the choppers will have to maintain a safe distance from the city."

I think that could be a reasonable explanation. But at least, I would like to test the map set up like this....

Or, here is something. You know the timer given to the person who goes out of bounds? "Punishment in 10 seconds", well, just raise that so that the Apache has maybe for example a minute over the city, and then he has to get out...

Again, that is only an example, but I think the map could work with the Apache back in, it just needs thinking about.

jayceon515 · Post by **jayceon515** » 2007-10-09 15:59

IMO 2 SA-7 with no warning sound, RPG and caches to resupply them, a few mobile .50cal MGs are good enough to counter a single apache with long respawn time. And there is no need to limit the chopper combat zone. This would add another tactic to the map - take the copper out first then go capture the VCP. Or just make VCP unacappable and keep apache away from this map. Maybe if you lower the insurgent tickets and give a huge ticket loss on every destroyed cache would incourage insurgents to stay around caches and defend them as they probably would IRL.

Post by **Rhino** » 2007-10-09 16:34

*yawn....*

if the chopper is soo easy to take down, then why do you want it on the map? the reason being is cos it cant be taken down "so easily" and you can kill lots and lots and lots with it, very easily.

also btw, the SA-7 only has no lock sound for the person shooting it to get past a bug, the chopper can still hear it locking on.

jayceon515 · Post by **jayceon515** » 2007-10-09 16:52

There is no lock-on sound while in merlin AFAIK.
BTW I've never said that I want the chopper to be on the map I just want some shooting in the city and/or in the village and not everything taking place around/inside the VCP while the rest of the map is a complete waist of RAM

agentscar · Post by **agentscar** » 2007-10-09 16:57

Well,it's a PKM,shoots 7.62 rounds on the back of the INS. truck not a 50cal.

But really,not all caches are in destructable biuldings and lying out in the open,so how would the apache be able to take them all out?,along with the fact,most pilots either can't get a gunner,or just fly off without one,AND use the Merlin as an example people fly around in that all day and don't find too many caches,max. like 2 or just get shot down...And I think giving the INS. another SA-7 would be nice if the Apche were added back in.I'm against the no fly zone idea,and for the Challenger II idea that was brought up,except for the spawn time,and spawing in random places part I like it.Putting the Apache back in would help tons in keeping the VCP safe.