Less Recoil to the Left but More to the Right

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-20 05:08

Shouldn't all of the handheld, shoulder borne, firearms have a tendency to recoil to the right when fired? This would be due to the rifle being away from the pivot point and on the right side. All it would take is to change a few lines of code.

eg in the case of the M16A2:
"ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.4/0.4/0"
"ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/X/Y/0",
where -0.4 < X < 0 and Y > 0.4.

This, to the best of my knowledge, would result in less recoil to the left but more to the right compared to originally.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-20 06:03

Double thread. My bad. x.x

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-10-20 06:19

I thought, the gun goes up in-game, not sideways? o.o

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-20 06:29

Outlawz wrote:I thought, the gun goes up in-game, not sideways? o.o

Most guns(if not all) go up but with a greater effect than sideways. Eg the M16A2 has, "ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.1/0.6/0" which means that the gun will recoil upwards between 0.1 and 0.6 units (degrees I believe).

EDIT: "ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.1/0.6/0" should be: "ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.65/1.55/0" and in my original post, "ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.4/0.4/0"
"ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/X/Y/0",
where -0.4 < X < 0 and Y > 0.4.
should be
"ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.5/0.5/0"
"ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/X/Y/0",
where -0.5 < X < 0 and Y > 0.5.

Waaah_Wah · Post by **Waaah_Wah** » 2007-10-20 20:14

I think that recoil should be a little "random". Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it doesnt go that much up, sometime it goes more to the left sometimes... Well you get the point

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2007-10-21 00:50

It's already random though isn't it?

If rifles act in this manner though, wouldn't you tense your arms in a way that would minimise that kinda thing though? Never fired a proper gun before so I dunno if it's possible.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 01:05

Waaah_Wah wrote:I think that recoil should be a little "random". Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it doesnt go that much up, sometime it goes more to the left sometimes... Well you get the point

It is random. That is what the "CRD_UNIFORM" modifier is for. It stands for continuous random distribution_Uniform. This means that every value, within the designated range, has an equal an equal chance of happening.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 01:19

AnRK wrote:It's already random though isn't it?

If rifles act in this manner though, wouldn't you tense your arms in a way that would minimise that kinda thing though? Never fired a proper gun before so I dunno if it's possible.

It is not as accurate to shoot if you are tired. Tensing up fatigues your muscles and makes you tired as well as making you tremble. However, in a combat situation one would tend to get a bit tight. Maybe for the sniper and marksmen weapons the recoil should be randomly to the right and never to the left, in order to reflect a calm and controlled firing position. The normal rifle could have a small range of recoil values to the left and a larger set of values to the right. This would reflect a slightly tensed up, individual's firing behavior in a combat situation.

WNxLT7 · Post by **WNxLT7** » 2007-10-21 02:49

The m16 doesn't need any more recoil. It already has more recoil then it does in real life even though in real life it has the least recoil out of every rifle in game. don't you think it's kind of weird that the PKM can be controlled on full auto more so than the M16 and L85?

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 03:08

WNxLT7 wrote:The m16 doesn't need any more recoil. It already has more recoil then it does in real life even though in real life it has the least recoil out of every rifle in game. don't you think it's kind of weird that the PKM can be controlled on full auto more so than the M16 and L85?

I'm not saying that recoil needs to be increased. What I am saying is that there needs to be more recoil to the right and less to the left due to rifle's positioning relative to the body.

The M16 that you refer to does not have fully automatic fire capability. The reason the PKM has better recoil handling characteristics is because it is a GPMG. Although it fires a substantially heavier round, it fires it at a slower speed and at a slower rate of fire. Also the thing weighs far more then the average assault rifle so that helps dissipate the recoil too.

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2007-10-21 11:42

nedlands1 wrote:It is not as accurate to shoot if you are tired. Tensing up fatigues your muscles and makes you tired as well as making you tremble. However, in a combat situation one would tend to get a bit tight. Maybe for the sniper and marksmen weapons the recoil should be randomly to the right and never to the left, in order to reflect a calm and controlled firing position. The normal rifle could have a small range of recoil values to the left and a larger set of values to the right. This would reflect a slightly tensed up, individual's firing behavior in a combat situation.

If your right (no pun intended...) then I'm on side. But that gives me a, probably already suggested, idea. Is there any way of making shooting take down your stamina level? Not quite sure what popular FPS I'm lifting that from, I think it might be DoD, but that'd be quite cool if it were codeable. I'll do a search and start a new thread, if it's not already been suggested, so I don't potentially hijack your thread.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 13:31

I have just found a neat modifier called, "ObjectTemplate.recoil.gobackonrecoil". What it does is return the weapon to its original position from being shot. It doesn't bring the weapon back perfectly in line and it can be interrupted by quick subsequent shots. The normal recoil setup for the M4A1 is like this:

rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem 556 Low Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.65/1.65/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.5/0.5/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.8
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphFrameCount 7
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphExponent 4
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphTotalMovement 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.gobackonrecoil 0

This results in tight groups for fully automatic bursts in comparison to tall groups for single shots when the aim is not adjusted. Also there is random recoil left or right.

My recoil setup is like so:

rem ---BeginComp:SoldierBasedRecoilComp ---
rem 556 Low Recoil Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierBasedRecoilComp
ObjectTemplate.recoil.hasRecoilForce 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.65/1.65/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceLeftRight CRD_UNIFORM/-0.5/0/0
ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.8
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphFrameCount 7
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphExponent 4
ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilGraphTotalMovement 1
ObjectTemplate.recoil.gobackonrecoil 1

This setup produces tight groups when firing single shots due to the rifle having enough time to pull back into the "natural point of aim" position. Large automatic burst give comparatively large groups. Also there will be a tendency to pull up and to the right instead of all over the place.

FoW_Strummer · Post by **FoW_Strummer** » 2007-10-21 13:37

With all this talk about recoil..how about the real issue with the way the guns work. When (in real life) someone is running and falls forward to go prone, the time it takes to get that rifle up and set is much much much longer than it is in this game. I would like to see the recoil decrease (i think it is actually) while prone, but a longer recovery time when going from sprint to prone to shoot.

STRUM

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 13:39

Jonny wrote:After a full mag it should have raised about 10 whatever-units-that-is, so it is something bigger than degrees I think, but cant be radians. I'll go do some testing.

Yeah it can't be radians. 90 degrees = pie/2 radians = 1.571 radians. The M4A1's maximum upwards recoil is 1.65 units and if that was in radians then some of time when you fired a horizontal shot you would looking directly up.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 13:46

FoW_Strummer wrote:With all this talk about recoil..how about the real issue with the way the guns work. When (in real life) someone is running and falls forward to go prone, the time it takes to get that rifle up and set is much much much longer than it is in this game. I would like to see the recoil decrease (i think it is actually) while prone, but a longer recovery time when going from sprint to prone to shoot.

STRUM

The recoil values can't be changed between stances. This becomes especially problematic with the LMG's/GPMG's as is real life they have far better recoil absorption properties when prone then standing(unsupported). The DEV's get around this, to an extent, by increasing the random deviation values for the prone and crouched positions. The weapon jumps just as much as when prone, except the rounds spread out more.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 14:22

Jonny wrote:Done:

Average recoil upwards is ~0.35 units
(must be the centre point of the whole range of posibilities)

30 shots would therefore raise the rifle to ~10.5 units above whereever you were facing.

After firing 30 shots, semi auto, with the riflemans M16 it had risen ~ 60-70 degrees. I repeated this with a second mag, same thing happened, still 60-70 degrees.

This puts each unit at about 5.7-6.7 degrees, and each shot at about 2.2 degrees. I would need someone else to tell me a more exact angle, possible with screenshots, to get a better estimate of the size of each of these units.

EDIT:
one radian is ~57 degrees, so definately not radians

Problem(or solution perhaps?): "ObjectTemplate.recoil.zoomModifier 0.8" and "ObjectTemplate.recoil.recoilForceUp CRD_UNIFORM/0.65/1.55/0" are the relevant recoil modifiers for the rifleman's M16. The CRD_UNIFORM indicates that the values are evenly distributed between 0.65 and 1.55 units. You can the actual value being the mean value which is 1.1. The "zoomModifier" of 0.8 multiplies by the recoil value bringing our new value to 0.88 units (EDIT: when zoomed otherwise 1.1).

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-10-21 14:33

Enough quantifying my idea what about qualifying it?

Is it sound enough to shout "DEV!"?