What a "Squad" Should be ?

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 21:49

You are assuming things, to compensate for these difficulties people would have to be more tactical and mindful about their locations. I see where you're coming from because you're imagining these limitations on the maps that we already have. With newer, better covered maps for infantry, vehicles will be very vulnerable making them be more careful about where they move. As we have it now, you cannot really hide from vehicles, if you run into a building there are no indentations that would provide cover. With more hollowed out buildings infantry would have the upper hand on vehicles. On maps with more hills and outdoors area, your infantry would be heavily supported by land vehicles to combat air and other vehicles.

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-01-08 21:58

Assuming what? I'm not assuming anything, taking the medics revive ability away games would not pass the 10 minute mark, this isn't me assuming things you can easily see this by looking at AA.

Removing the medics revive ability from PR would make the entire game worthless, the first thing I would do and just about everyone else would do is grab a sniper rifle and run away into the hills, that way you can pick people off without dieing your self, so you see trying to make a game 100% realistic brings up more problems.

Now that is not happening on AA for two main reasons, maps are only a few hundred metres big and they have class limiting.

But as I have said you cant do this with PR, if you re-read my previous post I have already told you why.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 22:13

"But that's not going to change in this mod if they were removed games would last ten minutes."
Not assuming? Then im guessing its hard coded that the game would last 10 minutes, not 10 minutes 1 second, 9 minutes 59 seconds, or 40 minutes. There is a reinforcment system, we can respawn still on squad leaders and strategic points on the map, so it is not comparable to AA.It depends on the structure and balance of the map. If we had cover from vehicles and more flanking points on vehicles they would be scared of infantry. With more cover on the floor in infantry vs infantry battles people be more careful because now they know they will die and the magic defib wont bring em back.

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2006-01-08 22:14

'[R-PUB wrote:Eden']Assuming what? I'm not assuming anything, taking the medics revive ability away games would not pass the 10 minute mark, this isn't me assuming things you can easily see this by looking at AA.

Removing the medics revive ability from PR would make the entire game worthless, the first thing I would do and just about everyone else would do is grab a sniper rifle and run away into the hills, that way you can pick people off without dieing your self, so you see trying to make a game 100% realistic brings up more problems.

Now that is not happening on AA for two main reasons, maps are only a few hundred metres big and they have class limiting.

But as I have said you cant do this with PR, if you re-read my previous post I have already told you why.

There are many flaws in your argument.

1) Yes, you are assuming that no one would survive past 10 minutes. And we also have "respawns," where it represents an abstraction to new troops coming in, in lieu of the fallen ones. There must be long spawn times of course.

2) Removing the medic revive ability would make the game worthless......why?

3) People would all pick up a sniper rifle and forget about capturing points? Are you forgetting that this game is based on team winnings, not personal.
And there should be class limitations anyway, and I'm sure that will be implemented in the future.

And what's wrong with having PR like AA? Yes, PR would never be like AA because PR would have land, air, and sea. PR would be an expansion to AA. It's more like, PR having all of the gameplay elements of AA (why not? We want realistic gameplay. I don't understand half-assing realism, because if we were to do that, the mod should be called Project semi-realism) plus vehicles, a large battlefield, and sea.

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-01-08 22:26

Not assuming? Then im guessing its hard coded that the game would last 10 minutes, not 10 minutes 1 second, 9 minutes 59 seconds, or 40 minutes.

now your just being stupid.
It has nothing to do with structure/balance of the map. PR wont be realistic it isn't passable, I don't think you even read my previous posts because you keep on thinking that you are right.

Lets keep on the fact that removing the medics revive ability is realistic, so the PR team have done than and now you are playing a map.

10 people on each team playing Kerkand on GH. 3 minutes into the game your in a fire fight with the enemy, straight away two of your guys are dead, your team kills 3 of there team and you move on.

that's 8 left on your team and 7 on there's.

6 minutes, You them move to take control of a flag the enemy appears and kills another three of your guys and disappears.

that leaves 5:7

8 minutes, you find the enemy trying to take back the flag, you kill two and they kill three of your guys.

that leaves 2:5

One problem now the last two guys on your team are lone wolfs, the enemy will never find them and the wont even try to attack the enemy because there out numbered and will die.

12 minutes into the game the enemy captures the remaining flags and waits for the tickets to drop so they win.

------------------------------------------------------
That sounds great doesn't it?... Not really, but it doesn't matter because that's not going to happen, the PR team wont make the game like that. Why not you ask?

READ MY POSTS!

I've explained it a number of times.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 22:31

'[R-PUB wrote:Eden']Assuming what? I'm not assuming anything, taking the medics revive ability away games would not pass the 10 minute mark, this isn't me assuming things you can easily see this by looking at AA.

You just assumed that AA would reflect what would work for PR

Removing the medics revive ability from PR would make the entire game worthless, the first thing I would do and just about everyone else would do is grab a sniper rifle and run away into the hills, that way you can pick people off without dieing your self, so you see trying to make a game 100% realistic brings up more problems.

We want class limitations within squads and platoons. If I had it my way there would be 1 sniper per team because they are not deployed at the battallion level. If we had it so medics couldn't use magic defibs - what new problems could arise other than the fact that people can't revive on the spot. They could still wait 40 seconds or however long to come back and spawn on their squad leader. I am looking for something like 95% realism within the context of a game. Maps can compensate because right now all we do is fight on big open areas with little or no cover other than the corner of the building.

Now that is not happening on AA for two main reasons, maps are only a few hundred metres big and they have class limiting.

Wrong, the reasons why its not happening in AA is because they use a round system and they have class limitations

But as I have said you cant do this with PR, if you re-read my previous post I have already told you why.

Bold are my responses. And the 10 minute 1 second comment was supposed to be sarcastic. Glad you were able to pick up on it.

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-01-08 22:34

'[R-PUB wrote:Armand61685']There are many flaws in your argument.

1) Yes, you are assuming that no one would survive past 10 minutes. And we also have "respawns," where it represents an abstraction to new troops coming in, in lieu of the fallen ones. There must be long spawn times of course.

2) Removing the medic revive ability would make the game worthless......why?

3) People would all pick up a sniper rifle and forget about capturing points? Are you forgetting that this game is based on team winnings, not personal.
And there should be class limitations anyway, and I'm sure that will be implemented in the future.

And what's wrong with having PR like AA? Yes, PR would never be like AA because PR would have land, air, and sea. PR would be an expansion to AA. It's more like, PR having all of the gameplay elements of AA (why not? We want realistic gameplay. I don't understand half-assing realism, because if we were to do that, the mod should be called Project semi-realism) plus vehicles, a large battlefield, and sea.

OK ill go one further with that.

1) respawns represent reinforcements. Ok that does sound realistic. One thing reinforcements would not come in 40 seconds and not one at a time. Obviously the first attack was a failure so you would wait at least 12 hours so you can organise you troops.

One other thing we don't want to half *** realism do we so what we will do is make the reinforcements new players who have to wait until at least another ten players are ready to join.

2) I believe I just explained that.

3) exactly its based on team winnings, keep the team alive, if that means everyone goes as a sniper and camps the CP the enemy's going to take control of then that's great, it means we can take the enemy out in around a minute if everyone is co-ordinated and works as a team.

4) sure lets make PR like AA. We need to scrap this current project and redo it using another engine.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 22:37

Are you forgetting reinforcements are in this game? Because last time i played PRMM i came back before 10 minutes was up. 12 hour respawn times YES!! WHY DIDN't I THINK OF THAT!!!![/sarcasm]. I would've thought you knew about an already existing respawn system, now I'm stupid for that assuming that.

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-01-08 22:40

I'm all for realism but there's a point which you shouldn't cross, one thing you have to remember is this a mod not a full blown game with financial support from the government.

It has to appeal to a large number of people, if we don't get the balance between realism and fun just right PR will drop to the ground like a stone.

This isn't the only realism mode being made Modern Warfare is also very similar to what PR is doing, only one will thrive.

edit: I already know about the respawn system, but you want it realistic, that means either remove it or change it to a reinfocement system, if its change.. well youve alreay read what would make it realistic.

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-08 22:47

Removing the medic's revive ability will cripple the infantryman's offensive power and leave us in a First World War sort of battle. Squad leader spawn points and medic revive allow the infantry to advance, take and hold far better than we could hope for without them. In stock BF2, that is, before PR has touched it, medic reviving is still overpowered. If you intend to play "rifle infantry", you'll choose medic because you can rez anyone back to full health. In my write up, I suggested precisely what steps could be taken to reduce the effectiveness and use of medics while still retaining their vital role of keeping squads alive. You should find this a satisfactory compromise between total realism and BF2 vanilla's almost broken level, as it maintains fun gameplay and improves infantry survivability.

And stop insulting me in your signature.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 22:49

Don't tell me about reading previous posts
Here is an exerpt of one of my posts you didn't read.

"-Don't exploit the fact that devs are concerned about playerbase to get unrealism built into this mod. Players lost who do not take the time to learn the team strategy behind a game can only enjoy it on a much more simpler and juvenile way. These are the people that only enjoy the mod for the realistic benefits that only promote their personal killing enjoyment, things like the improved sniper rifle, saw, blackhawk minigun compared to their vanilla counterparts. The main point should be that teamwork should be necessary to complete objectives while realism is built into the mod in as much detail as possible within the context of a game."

and another one

"America's army is a game based on America's Army.
PR is based on a fictional war in the near future between the USMC and a Middle Eastern Coalition. (Yes - they are not terrorists kids)
AA runs on the UT engine with round based combat.
AA has no vehicles, large scale maps, or 64 player servers.
AA has a developed reputation and base for realism. - Why wouldn't you use some great ideas that have already been tested?
AA is not PR."

Now more closely related to this thread.

"It has to appeal to a large number of people, if we don't get the balance between realism and fun just right PR will drop to the ground like a stone."

More assuming, how about if I assumed that it would make the mod thrive. The only way to find out is to see what the devs do and how the community reacts. And funding is not part of the question. I only want a few simple things to make this mod perfect in my views. Kit restrictions, realistic weapons, new maps with more cover, taking out the magic effects that are not realistic, realistic fitting of 6 man squads into vehicles with an extra seat for the driver/pilot.

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-08 22:51

"I only want a few simple things to make this mod perfect in my views. Kit restrictions, realistic weapons, new maps, taking out the magic effects that are not realistic, realistic fitting of 6 man squads into vehicles with an extra seat for the driver/pilot."

Do it yourself. The editor is free.

Post by **UK_Force** » 2006-01-08 22:52

Just to add, a real time UK unit , ie my unit in I raq had the following squad:

6 men on foot (also 6 men on X2 wmiks as a QRF)

1 x Ptl Commander = SA80 + UGL + Laser/IR/Torch fit + Pistol + 4 x Grenades + 2 x Smoke + 240 5.56mm + 50 9mm + 6 40mm UGL gnds.

1 x Ptl 2ic - as above, less Pistol and 9mm rounds.

2 x Patrolmen = SA80 + 4 x Grenades + 240 5.56mm. (1 was trained to paramedic level as our medic)

2 x Patrolmen Support = 2 x PARA Minimi + 4 belts ammo + 4 x grenades.

Each team also had a signaller and FAC where possible.

This was backed up by a sniper, AT, TACP (with CAS on call) and Mortar team when required, whichever was required at the time.

All backed up by the 6 man wmik team on standby with GPMG - AT etc.

However a different situation required a different load out so getting the balance in game is difficult !!!

Realism and Gameplay is - I believe a "fine line", finding this is the key to success ?

(Hence Forum Discussion)

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-01-08 23:01

Kit restrictions, realistic weapons, new maps with more cover, taking out the magic effects that are not realistic, realistic fitting of 6 man squads into vehicles with an extra seat for the driver/pilot.

Apart from kit restrictions I compleatly agree.

Kit restrictions is one of the herder thing to do.

There are several thing that you need to take into consideration if you were to implement kit restrictions. There may be fights and people may end up killing team mate to get the kit they want. When someone dies they drop there kit, from what I have read this can not be completely removed.

What if someone does not want to go medic, that means you have one less medic because they are more unlikely to heal you, the same can be said for most other kits.

People will just create there own squads, you could limit the amount of squads but then what if people lock squads with only two people in them.

Those are the main reasons I am against kit restrictions.

As for the other things, as NikovK said most of this you can do your self, there are already a number of maps being make by the community and a couple of maps in testing.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 23:03

NikovK wrote: Do it yourself. The editor is free.

What you just said was very hypocritical on so many levels. I guess this means you win the argument, you shut me down by telling me to do it myself. I feel crushed.

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-08 23:06

1 x Ptl Commander = SA80 + UGL + Laser/IR/Torch fit + Pistol + 4 x Grenades + 2 x Smoke + 240 5.56mm + 50 9mm + 6 40mm UGL gnds.
ASSAULT
1 x Ptl 2ic - as above, less Pistol and 9mm rounds.
ASSAULT
2 x Patrolmen = SA80 + 4 x Grenades + 240 5.56mm. (1 was trained to paramedic level as our medic)
RIFLEMAN
MEDIC
2 x Patrolmen Support = 2 x PARA Minimi + 4 belts ammo + 4 x grenades.
SUPPORT
SUPPORT

OMGZ, you can't have TWO MACHINE GUNS! That's not REALISTIC!

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-08 23:09

visaya wrote:What you just said was very hypocritical on so many levels. I guess this means you win the argument, you shut me down by telling me to do it myself. I feel crushed.

You mean making my own map, specially designed for the mod I love, but then telling you to pony up, is hypocritical?

Post by **UK_Force** » 2006-01-08 23:13

OMGZ, you can't have TWO MACHINE GUNS! That's not REALISTIC!

But that IS realism ? .... Not Gameplay.

visaya · Post by **visaya** » 2006-01-08 23:19

NikovK wrote:You mean making my own map, specially designed for the mod I love, but then telling you to pony up, is hypocritical?

Um.. I dont think I can edit the mod just by editing the map. And the very fact that you were requesting things for PRMM in the beginning and then you tell me to do it myself is hypocritical.

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-08 23:20

Yes, but we at the Hague specifically stated you can't have two machine guns in a squad. We're banning Britain for exploiting.