Promoting the Defense of a CP

[Hardtman]

Just a few minutes ago, I read about the problem that once a CP has been captured, usually most of the Team rushes towards the next one.I also have experienced this quite a lot and it is rather stupid.
I spent this issue some thought, and came up with an idea, that might work, and even more, might be possible to do.

So,basically the idea goes like this: On every (or just on some) CP we have now, we put another captureable flag at exact the same location as the other one. For further explanations, I'll call the original one the Point-Flag and the new one the Consolidation-Flag.

Now, for both teams the new AAS-Order in which the flags are to be captured would look like this: First the Point-Flag at one place, then the Consolidation-Flag at the same place, then the Point-Flag at the next place, then the Consolidation-Flag there, and so on.

So,now to the function of them: the Point-flag just takes the usual time to capture, and gives the team the usual bonus ticket-wise.
The Consolidation-Flag on the other Hand takes a good deal of time, I'd say around 10 minutes, but the exact amount of time is up to testing. Only when the Consolidation-Flag is captured the team can move up to the next location. This would simulate of securing a captured outpost and establishing a perimeter.
The Consolidation-Flag would go down rather fast (Around 30-Seconds), but remember that it is only accessible by the other team once the Point-Flag was brought down.

Assuming that the placement of the new flags isn't too much trouble mapping-wise and that the AAS-Orders can be different for both teams, this could turn the current rushing into a more deliberate, planned advancing.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

[Ninja2dan]

I like the idea, as it would retain CP defensive posture and promote better teamwork. Far too many times have I seen half of our force rush off to the next flag when it can't even be taken yet, only to find our current A flag taken by the enemy. This is like leaving your pants down in prison, you're just asking to get poked.

I also feel that this would give the commander more reason to fortify the CP's. After all, they do have assets and fortifications they can emplace, but rarely do I see a commander actually use those items. Bunkers, wire, sandbags, etc should be set up before moving to the next flag. Not only does it extend your spawn points closer to the front lines, but it provides a fortified position to fall back to if necessary.

[Bonsai]

...sounds like a good idea.

[<1sk>Headshot]

One of the best ideas I've heard in a while!

It should only be used on important flags though, not every flag. Where it is possible to maintain a defensive perimeter and large enough to accomodate 32 players.

[Masaq]

Would be an interesting thing to try out in a large-scale Beta. I suspect it'd either work very very well or very very poorly.

[MadTommy]

IMO presently if you don't defend you loose. Simple as that. That is a massive incentive in PR.

I think with your system there is a chance that tactics will be reduced, teams will dig in, game play will slow up.

Commanders and Squad Leaders decide what and when to defend... i like it that way, good ones will defend when needed, bad ones will only ever attack.

[Xander[nl]]

I don't quite understand I quess.. Can someone explain it (in short) in newbies-english?

[Outlawz7]

Rather complicated idea there, I was actually thinking about the same thing and I think, we should put a delay, before you can capture the next flag. Right now, as soon as the flag is up, the A marker pops up on the next flag, everyone immediately rushes there and forgets about the D on the flag, they just capped.
A 2-3 minute delay before the next CP can be capable should slow this down, IMO

[Tikigod]

I like this idea. Its very similar to the flag capturing mechanism they have in WW2 Online when you contest towns:

Commander issues order to attack town, infantry move in attack and destroy AI defenses (the other team gets no warning, unless some poor schmo just so happens to be in the town) The infanty then have to sit in town for 10 minutes to contest it. Once the town has been contested they can start capping the flags represnting the various assets of the town (city hall, HQ Radio, Bunker, Fuel Depot, Factory, etc) Once all the flags are captured the town is then given to the team and they have to defend it for 10 minutes until the AI defenses go back online.

The enemy never knows a town is being taken until the flags are being capped (which is announced on the global radio channels). By then its usually too late and takes forever to amass a counter offensive. Battling for one town could last an entire weekend. BF2 couldn't use the same model (due to the game time limits) but, maybe similar ideas and scaled time ratios could be applied?

[Masaq]

Trouble is, people will always know which flag is to be taken next, and start moving on it.

[Farks]

I don't agree. PR shouldn't be adjusted to the people who can't play properly. If I'm a SL and a CP needs to be defended, I order my squad to defend it. And if I'm CO and sees that a CP needs defense, I direct a squad there.

[lysander_atrull]

2nd flag has to have people present on it before the the next 'point' flag can be taken ?

overcomplicated perhaps for this mod but I like the idea.. this might make it easier:

if the consolidation flag had a larger area / 'consolidation zone' it would help because I like to defend from outside a CP not inside it - everyone sitting in a bunker is just a fat target with little visibility.

[Warmagi]

My idea is somethin that I wrote down in diferent thread.

Make the flags mobile. Now the games are little repetitive. If you make that commander with some assets, lots of troops, various types of vehicles in the area could set a CP in some strategic places, wherever he wants. This CP would take some time to "build" (mind you Im not saying that all the structures should rise from the ground from nowhere, it would be just a flag on the map, he can place it in the middle of the dessert but it would be easly overtaken, so best would be in towns, viliges, top of the mountains and so on)

Once the flag is captured its being destroyed and commander have a choice of setting his flag in place of enemy flag which would not require all the assets or he can just leave it be and try to place his temporary base elsewhere.

And after and only then the flag is captured (destroyed) (maybe after few minutes from the time its captured)you get the location of next enemy base (to represent capturing inteligence documents, maps etc.). That way ppl would not know where is the next base. They could know where are the bases (scouting choppers, scouts, and so on) but they wouldnt know which one is next.

EDIT: "the first base from the view of an enemy would be revealed after say 10 minutes of game. Something like... QM: Inteligence saying that theres an enemy base in that area, take it down. And the enemy base apears on the map.

Numbers of bases that can be set would be preset by the mapper. For example each commander can have 3 active bases at a time + main base, that is always in the same place. And there can be only up to 6 bases overall at any time"

Ofcourse there are some issues
1) If something like this can be done at all?
2) What if theres no commander?
3) What if commander is a retard?
and so on... but I guess there are always some issues with every idea.

[$kelet0r]

seems overly complicated
a simpler effect would be that unless there are players in the captured flag area defending, the flag will slowly return to neutral.
to retain control over the flag, a squad must be actively defending it in or near the flag area.
if that were possible, then the attack-attack-attack mentality would be changed quite drastically as unless there is some form of defence going on, regardless of what the other team is doing, attacking the next cp would be futility

[Doc_Frank]

seems overly complicated
a simpler effect would be that unless there are players in the captured flag area defending, the flag will slowly return to neutral.
to retain control over the flag, a squad must be actively defending it in or near the flag area.
if that were possible, then the attack-attack-attack mentality would be changed quite drastically as unless there is some form of defence going on, regardless of what the other team is doing, attacking the next cp would be futility

^ My idea there!

It would even make it questinable if the loss is due to the enemy or the simple lacking of control over the flag.

I also agree with Farks, squadleaders must have the discipline to stay and defend a flag. Not to mention that the original idea would just lead to another thing that hasty noobz would just not know about the gameplay.

[Teek]

seems overly complicated
a simpler effect would be that unless there are players in the captured flag area defending, the flag will slowly return to neutral.
to retain control over the flag, a squad must be actively defending it in or near the flag area.
if that were possible, then the attack-attack-attack mentality would be changed quite drastically as unless there is some form of defence going on, regardless of what the other team is doing, attacking the next cp would be futility

The problem with this is its the same flag, and has the same radius, if a squad defended the perimeter and leaves 1 man on the flag, if he gets sniped or ATed, then the flag starts to grey. not much of a problem, but what if a Squad Helos on the the flag and in to the bunker, they could almost insta cap it while the defenders would have to attack there own bunker.
(slightly exaggerated, but totally possible)

whats nice about the consolidation flag, is the radius is much bigger, so when a enemy enters the area, that flag becomes contested, then capped. not possible for a quick drop on the flag while the enemy is still looking outwards.

[Doc_Frank]

^ Wouldn't expanding the defending area be just as good? Basically this is all the same I think.

Possible results:
- The attackers have to have absolute control over a flag to capture -> no sneak-in surprie.
- The slow rate of auto-neutralising can aid the attackers.

[Hardtman]

Okay, thanks for the whole Feedback.

Some of you said that this would be overly complicated, but in praxis it's be very easy: You capture a flag like usual, the ticket-ratio would shift accordingly, the only difference is that you have to stay at that flag for some ten-ish minutes before you can capture the next one. Probably this can be achieved much easier, but the way with the double flags just seemed to me to have the highest chance of being doable coding-wise.

Also, you have to keep in mind that the team wouldn't be glued to the Consolidation-Flag. A part of the team can just move on and establish a firebase near the next location, so they have a good foothold for the next assault.

Furthermore, at the time being, it may happen that some people are moving to a yet uncappable flag in order although there is still fighting at the flag that comes before it. Now as soon as their team captures the first flag, the following will also be captured nearly instantly. My suggestion would mostly eliminate that, since it gives the enemies time to secure the next point properly.

That brings me to the next point, which I didn't expressed properly in my first post:
After one team captured a flag, the enemy has enough time to set up a defensive position at the next flag in order. This would lead to coordinated attacks against a prepared defense, which would in my opinion improve gameplay as well as immersion, and would make more elaborate tactics an easier option.

But as Masaq said, this would have to be tested in a beta of some kind. Either it bring the results I imagined while making this suggestion, or it would lead to a painfully slow, passive out-camping, or some problems would occur we have not thought of, or hardly changes anything at all.