Make Pilots Captured By Knife (Like Civilians)

[fubar++]

There was an other thread where were suggested some kind of radio marker for pilots. They would use it if they would crash requesting a pick up and everyone at your team could see that message on map.

There it is, post 45: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/give-u ... 393p5.html

I'm not so favor of loosing pilot kits for opposite team, with rest I agree.

[Tikigod]

I have piloted since end of 0.4. The first and only time I parachuted out was on Quai River after heavy APC fire a month ago and I promptly died because I wasn't 10 seconds in the air. No-one is gonna parachute for 10 seconds.

Well, if the other team shoots your parachute thats up to them. It will just immediately make another pilot kit available to your team so that a new pilot can attack them. To deny your team a pilot kit they would want to let him live, capture him, and take his kit. (so your team cant send out another helicopter against them)

Maybe on kashan in PLANES. However if I landed in the middle of Kashan with a 20 minute walk to anyone I would suicide. Can't see someone chasing me halfway across the desert for an extra 20 points, can you?

Well, then just havign 20 points obviously isn't a big enough reward. What value would make you want to chase and hunt a pilot? that is the question.... a 100 ticket bonus? a 200 ticket bonus? If a team is about to lose a game, capturing a pilot might buy them enought time to reclaim sectors and turn the game around. 100-200 tickets is a huge relief to a losing side and to the other team it is a crushing blow (because they will now have to work that much harder to get those tickets back). Commanders, Squad Leaders, everyone on each side would be motivated to capture or rescue the pilot is the ticket reward was large.

[Tikigod]

I'm not so favor of loosing pilot kits for opposite team, with rest I agree.

Of course you wouldn't be in favor of it. Neither would I. But, logically that's what will motivate you to look for and capture enemy pilots. This system would make pilots high value assets to both sides.

In reality if a pilot is captured and there is a limited amount of trained pilots. Your aircraft is grounded because noone else would have the experience or knowledge to fly it. In PR, if the enemy has your kits, you would do what it takes to find and capture their pilots in order to get the kits back. (this would almost be the equivalent of a POW rescue) This would also make pilots not want to stand around in the open exposed to an enemy that is looking to hunt and capture them. (you won't see them standing around alone at base and the team would want to guard and protect them)

Most likely they pilots with your captured kits will die or move on to other kits (so its just a matter of time before one becomes available again for your team) The enemy side could hide their extra pilot packs by hiding the pilots wearing your captured kits. This would be like them having your POW's and is a good strategy for denying you air assets.

The question is, do you limit the pilot kits to the exact amount of helicopters and gunners for the map? or do you allow 2 extra pilot kits available as a reserve in case the enemy does capture and deny you your kits?

[fubar++]

If there would be limited amount of pilot kits and risk of loosing them to opposite team, kits shouldn't be very thight limited. Firstly IRL you can train new pilots and have them in reserve. Secondly if opposite team would be able to get other team pilot kits, there might not be soon any kits left on other team while opposite team would have huge bonus of pilots for free of charge (=long and expencive training IRL). It would be like punishing pilot loosing team power 2 or even more. I think it would put just too much emphasis to pilot kits for sake of rest game.

[Tikigod]

If there would be limited amount of pilot kits and risk of loosing them to opposite team, kits shouldn't be very thight limited.
.

I agree. I'm not sure if pilot kits can be limited by map design or if it is global limit for all maps. There should be at least 1 pilot kit for each recon and transpot chopper and 2 kits for each attack helicopter. Then maybe 2 extra for reserve.

Firstly IRL you can train new pilots and have them in reserve.

Helicopter training especially attack helicopter training takes years to learn (especially with all the advanced and customized systems onboard). You can't just immediately train a new pilot if one goes missing. You would have reserves yes. You wouldn't send up inexperienced pilots even if it was just basic flight skills (example throw a kiowa pilot into an apache in real life and tell him to go fly it...he wouldn't be able to do it). Maybe with WW2 technology when planes were more standardized you could do this but, not with the complexity if today's modern systems.

Secondly if opposite team would be able to get other team pilot kits, there might not be soon any kits left on other team while opposite team would have huge bonus of pilots for free of charge (=long and expencive training IRL). It would be like punishing pilot loosing team power 2 or even more. I think it would put just too much emphasis to pilot kits for sake of rest game.

You are describing an event that would rarely if at all ever happen.

Game Example:

Kashan Desert
A 7 of 7 Pilot Kit limit for each team:
2 Attack helicopters (2 Pilot Kits)
2 Transport helcopters (2 Pilot Kits)
1 Scout (1 Pilot Kit)
Possible Reserve Kits Available (2 Pilot Kits)

You are telling me the other team will be able to successfuly capture 7 kits making a total of 14 kits to one side? Then what? The other side will only have at a maxiumum have 5 helicopters ready to fly at once. This means you will have 9 extra pilots with nothing to do. You really think these 9 People will stay pilots? and not switch their kit to another? If they stay pilots your team will easily be able to capture and take back territories because there will be 9 people not able to be combat effective: drive tanks, apc's, AA, or provide infantry support etc. They are only weakening themselves by doing this. In a 32 player map you wouldn't do it and even with a 64 player map it wouldn't be easy.

The only problem with having reserve pilot kits available would be that the pilot that gets shot down (and wants to fly again) might not bother trying to survive if some reserve pilot waiting at base will just take his helicopter or plane).

I think there should be no reserve kits and there should only be the bare minimum pilot kits to fill the pilot and gunner positions for each aircraft. That way the pilots that get shot down will always know there will be a helicopter available to them by the time the helicopter or plane repawns again.

In real life, if you are in a situation like Kashan Desert, you are not going to have a ton of extra experienced pilots on hand for such a small base. These are the real world problems the military faces when deploying to a theatre. Pilots get sick, get killed, there are injuries, etc. Then you have helicopters that have malfunctions, get damage, run out of fuel supply, ammo, etc. Its not always perfect supply to match the demand throughout the extent of the war.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Do people chase pilots around deserts IRL? They either surrender, which isn't possible in PR, or they fight back, in which case you shoot them. I don't think i would want rounds to depend on who has the most retarded pilots, and i certainly wouldn't want to go on a wild goose chase rather than get on with fighting the battle.

A recent quote sums up my attitude on this:

How about we name it Project No-One-Gives-a-Shit-About-Air-Combat.

I want planes and choppers in the game, its part of the emersion for me, it is a combined arms games after all, but all this effort for 1 downed pilot?

[Tikigod]

Do people chase pilots around deserts IRL? They either surrender, which isn't possible in PR, or they fight back, in which case you shoot them.

Yes, they do...for both "pilots" and "other single players"...

=========================================

Apache Rescue in Afganistan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNNcTxhbXjA

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Defen ... tvideo.htm

Marines Train for Pilot Rescue before deploying to Iraq:
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=28730

"This training is exactly what the Marines need to prepare, Sgt. Maj. Wallington Sims said. "It's priceless," he said."

Rescue of Two downed Kiowa Pilots in Iraq:
http://bismarcktribune.com/articles/200 ... 136333.txt

Rescue of downed Kiowa in Iraq:
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=110'

Rescue of downed Navy Pilot:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A967958260

"Members of the rescue party indicated that at one point their efforts were jeopardized when an Iraqi truck suddenly appeared and began driving straight toward the stranded pilot."

"They said they destroyed the truck with a blast of Gatling gunfire from an A-10 attack plane overhead, then plucked the relieved pilot from the desert minutes later."

Rescue of Kiowa Pilots:
http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.a ... ryid=49301

"They survived a crash landing in which the helicopter flipped over. Still under fire, Cianfrini and Burrows ran for a nearby canal, and submerged themselves up to their mouths."

"Somehow, they were not hit and were able to radio for help, which arrived within minutes in the form of multiple helicopters and two F-16's. They estimated twenty to thirty insurgents that had the American pilots surrounded then fled."

Pilot of crashed U.S. fighter jet missing in Iraq
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/ ... index.html

"U.S. Central Command Air Forces said the recovery of the pilot is among its "primary concerns,"

"Coalition reconnaissance assets and fighter aircraft were overhead when the crash occurred and confirmed that insurgents were in the vicinity of the crash site immediately following the crash,"

New reports say Iraq holding U.S. pilot
http://home.att.net/~LIGWVets/gwuspilot.htm

"The defector is one of at least three Iraqis who reported that Baghdad is holding an American pilot from the 1991 Persian Gulf war."

"There also are concerns among some Pentagon officials that Saddam Hussein might try to exploit the issue of the missing pilot in a standoff with the United States. Iraq might reveal that it has the pilot and then threaten to execute him if U.S. forces invade."

Elite team rescues troops behind enemy lines
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast ... index.html

"We'll live up to our motto, 'That Others May Live,' " he said to us during covert night-operations training in Florida swamplands. "If you're out there, we'll go get you."

"For every helicopter that goes down, an Air Force Combat Search and Rescue team, which includes the PJs, must go into that same hostile territory to rescue and medically treat the downed crew. The PJs are part of what's called the Guardian Angel Weapon System, which includes combat rescue officers and survival, evasion, resistance and escape specialists. Pilots and aircrews of high-tech rescue helicopters, A-10 Warthog attack jets, fighter jets, reconnaissance aircraft and special refuelers round out the team."

"You're looking at a whole wing of people to put a couple of us guys on the ground to get one guy home," PJ "John" added."

"Air Force officials credit their Combat Search and Rescue teams with more than 750 saves in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11." (this is only the Air Force...look how many branches there are and how many other countries are involved in today's conflicts)

The work has always been dangerous, but it is getting more so, according to one PJ: Insurgents have laid ambushes, or placed bombs or other "secondary devices," that specifically target the rescue teams. They call these "SAR traps," short for Search and Rescue traps. Six PJs have been killed since the beginning of both operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.

"I remember laughing because PJs, before we deployed, they said, 'Sir, we need to bring our water gear,' and I said, 'You've got to be kidding me. We're going to the DESERT.' And they said, 'You never know, we've got be ready.' I'll be damned if I didn't have to eat crow," helicopter pilot TC said.

In the early days of the Iraq war, during the coalition's "shock and awe" campaign, that training made a difference for "Chocks," an A-10 pilot whose plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile over Baghdad. He was on the ground, alone in hostile territory, afraid of becoming a prisoner of war.

"It's a very primal, survival fear, not just of dying, but the pain associated with the way they [the enemy] make you die if they chose to actually do that.

A rescue mission was launched immediately after Chocks ejected from his plane. Two "Jolly" rescue helicopters and their crews, along with the PJs on board, came under fire while rescuing him. But they got him back to safe territory.


============================================

For someone that wants "immersion" its a shame don't know what is going on in the real military. The enemy is always trying to capture, torture, exploit, or kill downed pilots. Not to mention, a shame that you see pilots and other players in game as "insignificant". That attitude kills the immersion for me! I hope you and whoever the dude you quoted is never on my team in real life or in game

[Tikigod]

I don't think i would want rounds to depend on who has the most retarded pilots.

Rounds aren't going to depend on who has the most retarded pilots. Its just a new bonus or incentive added to the game.

and i certainly wouldn't want to go on a wild goose chase rather than get on with fighting the battle.

You won't be forced to. Its only an option. Go on with the fighting battle the choice is yours.

[Tikigod]

Maybe if I pilot is knifed the team that knifes him (if down a helicopter) will be awarded a new helicopter? (or other vehicle) This would speed up the wait time for the 15 minute respawn. That's a fair bonus that wouldn't throw off the balance of the game.

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

Tikigod...

Is this your spam tread?

PS.
When IAJTHOMAS was talking about "people that chase pilots around deserts" he was thinking about bad guys ("kill downed infidel pilot mission") and not about good guys ("rescue mission")

[Tikigod]

Tikigod...

Is this your spam tread?
")

lol...I come to a discussion board to discuss...not spam... don't ask questions if you don't want me to respond.

but, I'll shutup if thats what you want

PS.
When IAJTHOMAS was talking about "people that chase pilots around deserts" he was thinking about bad guys ("kill downed infidel pilot mission") and not about good guys ("rescue mission")

I know what he meant, thats why I posted the articles. Read the actual articles (not just the headings). They go into details of the hostiles that were present at each of the rescues and the extent the hositles went to capture the pilots (and the locations...being the desert).

My points is that both hostiles and friendlies do whatever they can to find shotdown pilots if they are in the area. They don't just look at the parachute in the sky or walk by a pilot and say "hey, look a pilot!" "cool man." "lets go checkout who is fighting over at MEC outpost."

[IAJTHOMAS]

I wasn't disputing the fact that the enemy will come for downed pilots, that much is blindingly obvious. What I was disputing was that when they got there they would put up with being shot at by a bunny hopping pilot, while they were chasing him round with drawn knives. As I said, surrender or get shot would be the order of the day.

Could you imagine a more vBF2 like scene?

And you say I could go and cap flags etc. Its hard enough to get some co-ordination going between squads atm, even in squads on a bad day. With half the team buggering about out any run way that may exist, another group chasing sniper rifles and blue guys on a nature walk, the last thing we need is another distraction from the core of the game.

Lets not forget that we only have 32 players per team, the 2 pilots themselves are a significant loss of boots, although worth it for their airsupport capabilites. What isn't worth it is a further 4, 5, 6? people from each side trying to capture/rescue 1 pilot, let alone any transports, choppers etc that may be used.

Further, if tickets are to be attached to this, of course it will have an effect in the outcome of the game. Most games are decided on tickets, and many i have been in have been decided by 10 tickets here and there. Your team has already been punished enough by top gun who has crashed his plane in to the group, through the loss of the asset, further ticket punishments for his retardness would not be welcomed by me.

[Tikigod]

What I was disputing was that when they got there they would put up with being shot at by a bunny hopping pilot, while they were chasing him round with drawn knives.

How is this any different from the current iunsurgency maps with people knifing civilians? Its actually quite fun and I think adds a new element to the game.

As I said, surrender or get shot would be the order of the day..

Nothing wrong with that attitude...seems pretty realistic to me...

Could you imagine a more vBF2 like scene?

Its not going to be happening to the extent of vBF2. How often are you going to be seeing pilots and enemy units dueling each other with knives and pistols? It will be far less than what you currently see on the insurgency maps between knives and civilians. Especially on a map as large as Kashan Desert.

And you say I could go and cap flags etc. Its hard enough to get some co-ordination going between squads atm, even in squads on a bad day. With half the team buggering about out any run way that may exist, another group chasing sniper rifles and blue guys on a nature walk, the last thing we need is another distraction from the core of the game.

Both teams have this limit. There will be wandering players on both sides (not just your own) So, it won't make it any more difficult for one side than it would the other. You can't blame wandering teammates on features that might cause distractions. Example: Take the new building features of the commander. If a commander decides to wander around building bases (requiring the additional resources of engineers). Should I blame bad leadership and decisions he makes based on the design elements of PR by allowing him to do this? Should we ask PR to remove the construction features of the commander all together because they just simply overwhelm us and are taxing on player resources? Like you said there is limited players and tons of things you can currenlty do in game (and I am sure the PR team will be adding more) You can't do everything that is possible in game. Everything has an opportunity cost (as it does in real life) where you and your team have to work together and decide what needs to take priority.

In the end it comes down to focus and decissions of the players. The team that will have the advantage is the team that decides to work together, stay focused, and accomplish the objectives handed to them. If they decide not to fight and rather race tanks and see who can complete 3 laps around Kashan Desert. There is nothing you can do to stop or prevent this (and you can't blame the game engine for allowing people to enter tanks, drive them, and do things like turn them) Its up to the players to decide if they will use a tank, where they will take it, and how they will use it.

Lets not forget that we only have 32 players per team, the 2 pilots themselves are a significant loss of boots, although worth it for their airsupport capabilites. What isn't worth it is a further 4, 5, 6? people from each side trying to capture/rescue 1 pilot, let alone any transports, choppers etc that may be used.

Currently you can have an unlimited amount of pilots. What prevents you from keeping all these boots on the ground? You simply can't. If everyone wants to be a pilot or and go airborne, they can.
Like I said, its the players decisions not the amount of game elements.

Further, if tickets are to be attached to this, of course it will have an effect in the outcome of the game. Most games are decided on tickets, and many i have been in have been decided by 10 tickets here and there. .

I agree with you on this. I'm for ticket bonuses rather than ticket punishments. I think the reward for the pilot captors should be either:

1) a ticket bonus (to help relieve a losing team...if all flags are capped they are going to be losing anyway)

OR

2) An instant vehicle/aircraft spawn (if one is down...this would remove the 15 minute wait time for the one instance)

(I'm looking for any other ideas that might be reasonable)

If there is a punishment at all, it should only be applied to the individual person who is knifed in the form of a delayed time respawn (2 minutes, etc rather than 30 seconds, this will prevent the one individual from acquiring a kit again and will give someone else a chance to fly)

Your team has already been punished enough by top gun who has crashed his plane in to the group, through the loss of the asset, further ticket punishments for his retardness would not be welcomed by me.

lol, well as long as topgun keeps crashing jets and killing himself you won't have to worry about him being captured...

What do you think is a possible solution if there could be one? Its easy to bash a topic but, what could be some solutions?

[<1sk>Headshot]

What value would make you want to chase and hunt a pilot? that is the question.... a 100 ticket bonus? a 200 ticket bonus? If a team is about to lose a game, capturing a pilot might buy them enought time to reclaim sectors and turn the game around. 100-200 tickets is a huge relief to a losing side and to the other team it is a crushing blow (because they will now have to work that much harder to get those tickets back). Commanders, Squad Leaders, everyone on each side would be motivated to capture or rescue the pilot is the ticket reward was large.

That's far too much. It's Project Reality, not Project Capture The Pilot.

[OkitaMakoto]

Sure he'll have a pistol, but hes bound to run out...

I like it, the thing is, how many times have you seen a pilot survive a "crash"

Me? none. They always blow up mid air... or fly back to base...

I think if theres ever a workaround to get crashes in game with better survivability (mainly choppers, planes can eject) then this would be really sweet. Youd have more reason to pick someone up because they would be at risk of getting knifed/losing points for your team

4 pages, i read the first... if anyone else said this, I agree with you

[DavidP]

I like it, the thing is, how many times have you seen a pilot survive a "crash"

Me? none. They always blow up mid air... or fly back to base...

Tons of times. I've had squadmate once who would dive into enemy positions when he had no escape, He'd always bail, Land safely behind enemy lines and harass them from there.

[OkitaMakoto]

Wow. nope never seen or heard of it. He survives even with the new parachute hieight requirements?

Hmm... anyway, I like it, I just dont see it enough(for me "at all") for it to require needing change (or the time to do it)

Meh,
Okita

[DavidP]

Wow. nope never seen or heard of it. He survives even with the new parachute hieight requirements?

Hmm... anyway, I like it, I just dont see it enough(for me "at all") for it to require needing change (or the time to do it)

Meh,
Okita

It was .609 and he got up to 500m before he guided it to the enemies doom before he bailed out.

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

I almost don't agree with the parachute timings considering that 0-0 ejection seats are stock standard now adays but anyway.

I really, really like this idea. It would never be a main focus but it would sure by a fun side event if you happen to see a pilot floating to the ground. Again, I really like this idea and for the negative nelly, I've read a lot of your ****. Do you ever have anything nice to say or are you one of thse argue just for the sake of arguing types?

[Darkpowder]

I enjoy knives with pilots in PR, mainly knifing opfor trying to take revenge on various airborne operations.

Planes are limited on the maps so pointless limiting pilot kits, the pilot would just end up suiciding if they were playing with a team that couldn't organise a pi55 up in a brewery.

However the pilot/team has a nice big penalty for losing the asset, though i do love the idea of recovering the pilot. Points for the pilot and every soldier in the transport helicopter for rescuing the pilot would be good.

Certainly Mongol and I enjoy the "Roleplay" value of knifing the downed pilots, refusing to shoot them is more or less a tradition in the same way of knifing people with .50 cal kits