Sniper rifles

DoktorTenma · Post by **DoktorTenma** » 2006-01-11 15:24

Sorry, double post.
As for removing doubles, deleting all the text in Edit doesn't work ("The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters."), nor can I find the bock button someone mentioned.

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 09:44

Harven wrote:1 per team would cause fights... "No I want to be the sniper." "No me!"

I'll use the sniper rifle when the bullet acts like a real bullet.. I'm assuming the scope should be somewhat calibrated.. but not for 10 meters.. You zoom in fire at a guy laying prone (you are above him) he's 60 meters away.. you can see the bullets hitting the ground 3 feet away from him all over.. come on.. properly adjusted rifles just don't do that unless your are jumping up and down while firing...

How about this.. someone said we should be able to adjust the scope depending on range and wind(how can we tell?) ... how about you look at a particular area.. you hit a single key.. the calibrate key.. 5 seconds or less and the scope is set up for the distance you your point at when you hit the button.. how about that? It would mean the snipers would have to take their time and be sneaky.. Otherwise they would get caught with their pants down.. like they do now! ... But with a small amount of hope.

So, I mentioned this in the early stage of this thread. Just trying to summarize things again about sniper rifles, which nobody repied, but would be really important:

1. Sniper rifles should be very accurate weapons. Period.

2. "Accuracy" means the bullet should go to the very middle of the crosshair, IF THE SCOPE OF THE RIFLE IS CALIBRATED for the given distance!

3. The're is a definitely need for calibrating the scope, but I suggest that this could be done by utilitzing additional binoculars with range finder (spotting scope). The binoc can work the same way, that the APC-s and MBT-s range finder: simply prints out the target's distance instantly. AFTER the sniper checked out the distance, he has to choose back to the rifle, and press a button one or more times for setting the range "zone". This can be done as defining more than 2 different "firemodes" for the sniper rifle, and can be designated at the "firemode" indicator in the lower right corner. There can be "1-2-3-4-5" for the different ranges. Experienced snipers can even eliminate the need of the rangefinder, they can guess the range correctly. By the way a "spotting scope" would be a MUST for the snipers anyway.

4. With the so accurate weapon there's a certain need to make the aim of the rifle MUCH more difficult to eliminate the "killerbot" effect of the sniper, and give him much more a support role. That's where I suggested the rifle "wave" technique, which can be suppressed for the time of the aiming by pressing AND HOLDING an "AIM" key during the aim, AND THE SHOT!

If you don't press the aim key, then the accuracy would be horrible. The time for the aim can be limited to a maximum of 5 seconds (i.e. holding your breath), which can be done the same way as the "RUN" indicator in the lower left corner. After you start pressing and holding the "AIM" key, the indicator (can be the same as for the "run") starts to decrease, and the wave of the rifle became much less. After the indicator reaches zero, the wave would be more than normal, and off course it'll need a certain time to "reload" the indicator for the next accurate shot.

5. The sniper rifles in the current version (at least in Vanilla BF2) works in that way, that the position of the player (standing, crouching, proning) won't affect the accuracy of the shot.

This could be definitely changed, so the position could affect the "wave" of the rifle very much.

6. As someone mentioned the sniper can be spot very easily because of the sound of his rifle.
Let me quote from a website related to military firearm suppressors:

"Military snipers can expect to be subjected to intense mortar or artillery fire should their location be inadvertently revealed. The suppressor could be the most important piece of "camouflage" used by a sniper team. The suppressor camouflages the rifle shot by almost eliminating muzzle flash and blast that can give away a sniper's location. Proper positioning of the shooter to cause the bullet to pass close by one or more hard objects can add to the enemy's confusion as the muffled shot will be veiled by the sonic crack which will seem to come from multiple locations as a result of it bouncing off hard objects."

and another pick:

"Even when firing full power loads supersonically, a suppressor….so dramatically reduces a sniper's sound signature that I think ultimately we are going to see suppressors on all sniper rifles."
-- Major John Plaster - Advanced Ultimate Sniper video

So, as these people suggest we should try to apply a suppressor for the sniper rifles as well.

7. If all of the suggestions I mentioned above can be applyed, then there's no need for limiting the number of sniper players per team, because only those people will try to be a sniper who can live with those difficulties. And I'm sure that a sniper of a team won't be able to be ot the top of the score table, but can play very important support role from a certain distance.

8. IRL the snipers're used for eliminating VERY IMPORTANT TARGETS ONLY. They're not wasted for killing a single soldier. But for killing a squad leader, or even the commander can be very useful. If you kill the squad leader, then the squad will loose it's mobile spawn point at the important location. The only problem how can you distinguish the squad leader from the rest of the squad?! I think that could be some kind of distinguishing feature of the commander and the squad leaders (i.e. slightly different color of the helmet). What about that?

That's all folks for now, I'm looking for your opinion about these suggestions!

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 10:06

"Vanilla" BF2 doesn't change the accuracy of the weapon even when prone? ********..
laying prone with a rifle equiped with a bipod is very accurate.. you can hold it perfectly still while still breathing... But I'd rather it wave around then it not shoot where the scope says it will... If anything... I like the idea of selecting different range zones as I would select a fire mode.

Post by **Rhino** » 2006-01-12 10:11

i was going to add the "wave" effect in here too but it seems you beat me to it

if no 1 understands what he means by the "wave" effect, he means that as when you are zoomed in your scope will be moving arround cos of very slight movment from your body that is only really notical when zoomed in for long distances and can become very anoying.

EDIT: also for the range finders, you can have it set up for like burst mode so you would push "3" to get your sniper out, then push "3" again to change it to 50m, then push "3" again to change it to 100m, and cycial through the ranges by keep on tapping 3 abit like change the rifle from auto to semi

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 10:50

Rhino wrote:
EDIT: also for the range finders, you can have it set up for like burst mode so you would push "3" to get your sniper out, then push "3" again to change it to 50m, then push "3" again to change it to 100m, and cycial through the ranges by keep on tapping 3 abit like change the rifle from auto to semi

That's EXACTLY what I mean! I think this would be the easiest and best solution - if the BF2 engine allows to define MORE THAN 2 firemodes for any weapon.

What about the "wave" suppression, target distinguishing, and attaching a suppressor on the rifle?

Just an interesting link to videos by OPS Inc, they produce the "Rolls Royce" of firearm suppressors:
http://www.opsinc.us/video.php

By the way they produce suppressors for M82A1 as well...

About Vanilla BF2 sniper rifles accuracy:
http://wiki.bf2s.com/weapons/sniper-rifles
"It’s also important to note that firing a zoomed sniper rifle while standing or kneeling is no less accurate than being prone. While it’s usually best to remain prone to avoid being spotted and present a more difficult target, it is good to know that a standing zoomed shot has just as much chance of hitting as a prone one, which can be important in some situations." THIS IS INSANE!

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 11:03

I know that BF2 allows for at least 3 modes of fire.. I played a medic as MEC and could fire in full auto, 3-round, or single fire.. I forgot the exact name of the gun so I will not bother to guess.. as this would lead to flaming...

Sorry, I just read that entire "Should woman be in the front lines" thread and it seems it got my competition gland all cranky..

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 11:10

Harven wrote:I know that BF2 allows for at least 3 modes of fire.. I played a medic as MEC and could fire in full auto, 3-round, or single fire..

That's good news. It's a shame, that I didn't noticed that. The reason could be I cannot remember if I ever played medic as MEC

IMHO maybe the 3 different "range zone" settings for the sniper rifles could be sufficient. Ranges could be <100 m, 100~250 m, 250~500 m but this should be checked out.

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 11:19

If the bullets at least followed the center line of the scope.. people could actualy use the marks (forgot the technical term) on the scope to calculate where it would hit depending on distance.. but this 'cone' firing BS has got to go. Bullets for the most part go where the barrel is pointing.

You have to be careful when you have 3 differnt modes.. if you are used to only two sometimes it can be a hassle at first in the heat of battle.. But I've had to play it enough to where I remeber to hit the weapons button twice quickly whilst moving from Auto to single fire.. skipping the goofy 3 round burst.

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 11:27

Harven wrote: You have to be careful when you have 3 differnt modes.. if you are used to only two sometimes it can be a hassle at first in the heat of battle.. But I've had to play it enough to where I remeber to hit the weapons button twice quickly whilst moving from Auto to single fire.. skipping the goofy 3 round burst.

I think a sniper should never be in the "heat of battle"

The main idea to set the things complicated for the sniper is to avoid that everyone wants to be a sniper. Yes, making ONE accurate shot can be time consuming (checking the range by the spotting scope, switching back to the rifle, setting the range zone on the rifle, suppressing the "wave" or "shake" of your hands, aim, AND fire. Then handle the recoil, and reload...).

You should be a "One shot - on kill" man.

(aka Thomas Beckett-Tom Berenger in "Sniper" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108171/ )

If only I can pick the squad leader out of the bunch of soldiers...

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 11:33

Well.. I didn't mean that to be for the sniper.. but you said you had never noticed.. so I was just giving you a heads up if you decided to play medic.. or what other class has the same gun. But yeah.. you should go for one shot kills... no sense in sitting there shooting someone a couple times when you could walk up and kill them easier...

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 11:44

Come on guys!

And DEV thoughts about these?

SiN|ScarFace · Post by **SiN|ScarFace** » 2006-01-12 16:05

its rare to get a worthwhile dev comment.

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 16:34

Does anyone else just sit here and watch SiN|ScarFace's sig....

Tom#13 · Post by **Tom#13** » 2006-01-12 16:35

i could watch it all day long, wheres it from?

Harven · Post by **Harven** » 2006-01-12 16:39

The movie "Collateral" .. with Tom Cruise and, Jamie Fox

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-01-12 20:21

Haha I have watched it run through a few times, it was a great movie and those cool little fighting moves were all over that movie.

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-12 20:47

Hey guys!

"Collateral" is a very good movie, and this is my favourite scene as well, but please get BACK ON TOPIC!!!

Any comments related to the sniper rifles? Or shall I start to learn the modding tools and code it for myself?!

By the way, I just checked out the "Total users that have visited today" list, and a bunch of DEVs visited the forum... and none of them thought it's important enough to say a word about it. Hmmm.

Post by **Evilhomer** » 2006-01-12 21:12

We have actually looked at the ideas in a coding style, but alot of them are impossible (sorry!). We have been working on limitng the number of snipers avaliable, however, with a new patch coming up we are considering the implications this will have, so the possibility is that we will have a solid awnser until then.

In the meantime, feel free to discuss the topic. Hopefully somebody may even be able to come up with a fantastic idea that could be tried. Trust me, quite alot has happened behind the doors on this topic. Rest assured, the sniper rifle will become a formidable weapon, yet will be balanced.

USAF-Marshall · Post by **USAF-Marshall** » 2006-01-15 06:32

'[R-PUB wrote:ir0nside']Well, here's my beef. When people complain about the SAW, a good amount of people say, "It's realistic - in real life, it maintains good accuracy, it's very lethal", and so forth. However, when you bring up un-nerfing sniper rifles or putting them at a realistic level, they immediately shoot you down.

"Everyone used them, they were too powerful, one hit kills at long range, blah blah". That is terribly shady and selfish.

Make the rechamber time much longer on the m24, for every single shot.

Make the recoil much worse so that you have to HIT with the M24 or risk rechambering a round very slowly and your target slipping away (or you being counter-sniped), and the SVD unable to fire off shots dead on round after round with only the tiniest aim adjustments each time.

These two changes will stop the abuse, I believe. They will be used less as in-the-heat-of-combat weapons, and more as support weapons.

Those are far more effective and creative ways of reducing sniper-rifle useage than making the m24 ridiculously inaccurate to the point of absurdity.

Your right, only because people complain about getting sniped doesnt mean that it should be gone... If the SAW is realistic too, take it out, it is only fair.... see you dont like that idea. Me being a sniper I am upset that you would even think about taking out a key piece of the ground troops arsenal. Snipers will make sure that you dont have the havok that happens on Vanilla BF2 with 64 people running in circles and casually strolling through open fields without threat.

F.N.G. · Post by **F.N.G.** » 2006-01-15 20:18

I say just take away their claymores and frags and do that click thing that was suggested with the different fire modes for elevation changes.

I say, take away their claymores, because, Why reward a sniper for getting caught. That's what happens. Every time you catch a sniper in a spot for too long he has his claymores set up and he gets kills for blowing you up, when he was the dumbass that stayed there too long and got found. Take his camping utensils away and make him what he is. A person that fears getting found and moves every once in awhile, like he should, or dies. And who the hell has proximity detonated claymores, anyway? Come on.

And take his frags, because, I've never seen a sniper with frags, and they are not assault troops. If the enemy is close enough for a sniper to use frags, then the sniper dun F**ked up. Make the snipers role real, if your gonna give him godlike accuracy.

Sniper Load-out
knife
Rifle w/ accurate ammo load.
Range finder binos

And a pistol, if it realistically is issued. I can't remember seeing a scout/sniper ever carry a pistol. I know his spotter carries an M16.

This would limit the kits, mainly to the people that want to put forth the effort to be a real sniper. And limit the stupidity normally associated with sniper kits. And screw that suppressor garbage, too. It's hard enough finding a sniper with all that gunfire.