AAS3 System Proposal

[Onil]

Assault and Secure mode is suppose to be more realistic then Conquest even though it uses a similar flag system with a few changes.

That's why i thought of a way to try and improve it a bit. I don't find it realistic to capture a flag (secure a location) just by hidding 2 or 3 guys all inside a tower or on some other dark place.

To secure a certain location you have to secure a certain perimeter and that's why i propose this structure to be used for AAS3.

Each post will still have the main flag (even though you won't see it) but the rules to capture it will be different.

The system currently in use defines that you will take 50% of the time to neutralize the flag and the other 50% of it to capture it (with the same number of players next to it)

The new system would change that. It will take you 80% of the time to neutralize it and only 20% to capture it. But it will have certain requirements.

Around the main flag you will have 4 other invisible flags, one on each direction around the main flag perimeter (north, south, west and east or NW, NE, SW and SE).

These Perimeter flags will be capped in 5 seconds and when you capture it the letters (w, e, n or s - nw, ne, sw or se) will appear according to the perimeter flag that you have captured. If you die or move away the perimeter flag will go neutral automaticaly.



To Neutralize the main flag you will need at least 2 players (one in each perimeter flag) capturing 2 perimeter flags for the main flag to start to go neutral.

To Capture the main flag you will need at least 4 players to capture the 4 perimeter flags in order to capture the main base. This will take alot less time then neutralizing the flag but only if you have at least 4 players. If you don't then the flag will only go neutral.



The radius of the perimeter flags would be on top of the main base radius but would be more limited. They would be defined by the mapper according to each main flag location characteristics.

This system requires alot more teamplay to capture flags and it's more realistic as it requires you to spread a bit to secure that location's perimeter in order to actually control it.

The perimeter flags will have a certain radius that makes it impossible for the squad to neutralize/capture the flag from only one location.

If possible, assets built on CP's should improve ground control by making it impossible to capture the flag (it could be neutralized) without the enemy asset (Bunker) being destroyed first.

I would like to know what the devs team thinks about this idea and get some feedback from the community aswell.

I believe it wouldn't be that hard to implement since it seems to use the current radius system to make sure that each team secures the perimeter and not just hides in a corner to cap the flag.

[supahpingi]

......................
Im stunned, i reeally really love this idea!!!!
But one thing to think about: How iwll u solve this with smaller non urban flags,like the towers on mestia?

[Maxfragg]

nice suggestion, i think it might be a bit to complicated, but i like the idea of a system moving to a area controll instead of just running to the flags.
I suggest so larger controllable areas which are only captureable when there are no enemies and when a enemie enters the area while captureing, the flag gets neutral imediatelly, so that you really need teamwork to secure a area. if bunkers could secure an area it would also be very nice, i hope its possible

[ZaZZo]

So bassicaly you have the main flag, and then areas around it with invisible flags (called perimters), and you need to cap half of the perimeters to neutral the main flag for example, then to turn the flag blue, you need to capture the rest of the perimeter bases?

[Rhino]

very complicated for the players, epically new players, and you keep on using the word "flag radius", where you need a circle to have a radius... We cant code in "cap boxes" as what you are proposing, only a radius of a circle around a object.

The best way to also keep it simple for both code and player wise is to have a large cap radius where needed.

[arthuro12]

Love this!

[Onil]

Ok let me try and explain the idea a bit better...

You don't really need "cap boxes" it was just more simple to explain it using them on the screen. simply place circle radius for each perimeter flag but that don't overlap each other so that players can't be together while securing them. Those perimeter flag radius will be inside the main flag radius but far from the center of it so that once again you don't have a place where you can cap all the perimeters from.

Flags will only be marked on the map so that you know where you have to be to capture them like it already is used.

ZaZZo to neutralize you have to cap at least 2 of the perimeter flags and stay there while neutralizing the main flag so that you don't loose the perimeter flags you just captured when neutralizing the main one. To capture the main flag you need 4 guys, one on each perimeter flag to capture the main one. Other players can be in main flag radius to help capture/neutralize it faster but you will always need 4 guys to stay on the perimeter radius for the flag to be captured. If you leave or get shot then the flag will stop being capped.

I don't think this is that hard to implement... and about it being hard for newcomers to get how it works... when did PR started to care about that? Read the Manual! That shouldn't stop a good idea from being used if the main objective is to make the mod more realistic... which i think this idea does.

Instead of players hiding while capping they will need to establish a perimeter around the location to capture/secure it.

About smaller flag locations like Mestia Bunkers, you have 2 options... you either make the main flag radius bigger (since you have more rules on how to cap the flag it won't be that easy to do even with bigger radius around it) and then you can make those perimeter flags around the main bunker area or if you prefer to keep it smaller then simply make sure that you need to have one player on each side bunker, one on the tower and one on the entrance... but i think it would be better to just make the radius bigger to implement this system.

Let me know if you have any more doubts.

Rhino sorry if the pics don't really help that much to explain how it works but you can still do it only using circles for flag radius... it's just a matter of them not overlapping each other by being away from each other an from the middle of the main radius.

more dev's feed back please?

[Rhino]

the only way you would not let the perimeter radius overloap the main radius is to make the perimeter radius very, very small... and how are the players meant to know where each perimeter radius is?

[Onil]

Rhino i didn't said that perimeter radius shouldn't overlap the main radius... it is the other way around... perimeter radius would be on top of the main radius. Unless that's not possible with the engine... ?

What i said is that each perimeter radius (each perimeter flag) shouldn't overlap other perimeter flag radius.

About players knowing where each perimeter radius is... each perimeter flag would be marked on the mini map as the main flag is. Do you see the main radius aswell? No you don't, what you see is that when you enter it, the Flag bar appears and you know you're in flag radius... You can do the same for the perimeter flags and if you don't want to use the little capping bar then just add a symbol like i said.

I'm not a developer so i don't know completely how things work but i try to make suggestions based on what i think that might be possible. correct me if I'm wrong

[Rhino]

coding wise this sounds like very dodgey ground.

In a early version of AAS v2 we had something we called the "neutralize radius", which was a slightly larger radius around the main cap radius that you could only neutralize the flag in, and not cap it. This proved to bring up many bugs, where your capping icon would not come up, also made lots of bugs with capping where flags that where not meant to cap would cap cos of this, and many other things happened from it. Also many players didn't understand the concept while playing, even thou its far simpler than your one and is basically the same thing, apart from you have divided it up into lots of mini flags etc.

Really the best way all round is just to have large cap radius which we do for many of our flags, and to be honest I dont think you even relize most of the rules that apply to them, like if you have more players in the cap radius than enemy players, you will cap the flag even if you cant find them, and evanually you will as there aint that many places to hide and players can still "hide" in your concept. There are lots of rules like that which most players dont even realize.

[arjan]

well this suggestion is defintly something to be looked on !
and will be more fun to cap flags, and will need coordiantion.. thats what i think

[Onil]

well it was worth the try... can't really do more then suggesting stuff so it is up for the Dev Team to try it if they want.

Rhino - Maybe having the perimeter flags will solve some of the bugs you had on your v2 tests with large main radius, i don't know

I just think that capping a flag right now isn't really securing it...

Maybe try and explore the idea about having to built something in order to cap the flag aswell. because that will require your team to defend the location until the asset is built.

I wouldn't worry too much about players not understanding how it works because this mod if for a specific targeted public and those players will read the manual and know what to do because they want as much realism and team play as they can get

[Rhino]

having sub flags from a code point of you would be far, far more complicated, and would never work for all types of flags, as there are many diffrent types, like flags inside buildings / rooms to represent capping a building, flags that are capped by vehicles, and streets that can only be capped by infantry etc.

building stuff is a idea but ehhh, that requires the commander to be there etc.

You can still secure a area as playing as a team and doing it by securing the permiter and holding it for that amount of time IMO is realistic, making players go to points of a flag to cap it is not, as how you secure a area should be upto the players IMO and not forced as diffrent factions will have diffrent tactis of securing areas in r/l and securing a area can be effective or ineffective by how players decide to go about it. Forcing players to do stuff means they have less flexibility in how they go about it. You can still set up a good permitier with the normal capping logic, I normaly sit out on over watch with my SAW while my squad moves into the flag, and when its clear move into a better postion to defend and help fully cap it, stuff like that.

[Onil]

well if each perimeter flag is big enough you don't need to be on a specific spot but rather on a certain area.

The idea is for team work to be a requirement instead of a choice, not really to force people to use specific tactics because they can still decide those if they want to.

Your squad might play like that and actually make a defensive perimeter but most won't do it and they will still cap the flag by hiding somewhere without even worrying if there are enemies on that location.

I don't think that's realistic enough.

The idea of having to built something and using a bigger flag radius is more or less an alternative but not as controlling as this one.

And about you needing a commander, If you can make so that SL's can place that asset that is needed to cap the flag, then the commander won't be needed for that job. He already has alot of assets that he can place while Squad Leader only has RP's.

And if you remove the spawning on SL (which i totally agree) then he will be even less important then he currently is so if you can make him more important by giving him the job of placing an asset to secure the controlled location then I believe that would be worth it.

Also Engineers or maybe Spec Ops will also have to blow up those assets for your team to capture the flag and place your assets in it.

Just think a bit about it.

[Rhino]

with the SL being a "requirement" of capturing a flag is a good idea, but thou in real terms if your squad leader got shot, the NCO would take over, instead of that happened all your squad could do is retreat or fight off the enemy not being able to fully cap the flag, so not sure thats a idea.

I understand what you are trying to acchive, but I'm also considering the time it will take to probaly code and test something like this with also getting it working is something thats not easy.

I think really what needs to be though of is a way to make capping a flag by hiding behind a box on your own, with some one else in your squad doing the same in another area a less effective tactic and promoting proper defence more as a more effective tactic. Some of the big problem is that the players them selfs need to change more than we can do with code. What was nice and effective was the old, "small" cap radius for flags as players could not hide in such a small area. But what players all did with this is they all run into this area to get the "flag capping points" or to help cap the flag faster, and instead what the most effective way to cap a flag like this is to have 2 or 3 guys move in to cap the flag, while the rest of the squad secure the area in good area to cover your squad from.

A thing about your sub flags is, what is going to say you can have a good area to cover your squad from? unless these areas are placed by the mapper, they are most likley not going to be good areas. and if they are good areas which the players are "required" to go, the enemy is going to learn where these areas are pretty damn quick as every one dose, and ehhh will just frag the hell out of it when you get there.

So as you see, its complicated stuff this and this is not taking real game flags into account as examples fully, this is just doing it with a general idea and when you start to do that it gets even more complicated hehe.

[Onil]

Yes i know it might be complicated...

And yes it would be placed by the mapper but it would be not such a small area so that you can be on more then one location and still cover the direction you're suppose to.

But i guess i already explained what i could and there's not point in repeating myself.

I believe you will do what you can to make the mod better either by using our ideas or not. I just hope that if our ideas are good and possible that you give them some attention and actually try them.

Feedback seems positive so far so i believe it might be somehow a good idea.

[Rhino]

This has given me another idea:

How about a flag which consists of several areas around it, all must be taken before the next flag can be taken.

They would be placed around the middle flag location, like the idea in the OP, but would stay taken once they are taken.

They would have to be marked on the minimap so that players know when they have to take a certain area, but would be cappable in any order.

This would only really work instead of huge single cap-areas, but in a town this would mean that you must move through it and control all of the individual 'suburbs' or groups of buildings and you would have to actually clear an area around the centre flag to cap it. It would also go well with insurgency as you could expect IEDs somewhere around the areas you have to clear and you would be more suceptable to ambushes. If one area could only be taken by infantry and another only by an armoured vehicle then other tactics could be used, ie clearing with infantry then entrenching a vehicle.

you could archive the same effect with putting lots of flags in the same group around a area....

[Rhino]

and the biggest problem from it is that you will make it turn into the good old vbf2 "wack a mole" process as all forces are running backwards and forwards to secure the CPs that have just been taken without even considering the defending the ones they have as there are soo many to defend you cant defend them all.