Unexploded ordnance - UXO

LeggyStarlitz · Post by **LeggyStarlitz** » 2007-11-22 17:42

So I was thinking that this was the one realistic thing that doesn't seem to be present in PR. Especially in places like Afghanistan unexploded ordnance is everywhere waiting for some poor fool to accidentally kick or step on them.

So I was thinking what if we had random UXO spread around a map the would explode merely by stepping on them. This would give a job for the engineers (EOD) to earn points by making them safe.

Also since this is where the majority of IED material comes from, they could be made safe and picked up by Insurgents to be used in roadside bombs. This way you could have a legitimate 2000 lb or a daisy chain of 155 rounds waiting for some APC.

Ghost716 · Post by **Ghost716** » 2007-11-22 18:44

Sounds like a cool idea to me if it could be implemented correctly.

markonymous · Post by **markonymous** » 2007-11-22 19:30

i think its a good idea but you really shouldn't over do it because imagine how anoying it would be stepping 1 step from the road and blowing up

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2007-11-22 19:59

It would give a legitimate reason to have those 50 cal special purpose rifles people are so fond of.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-11-23 02:49

The devs have been asking how to make IEDs look like normal scenery while being obvious if you are looking for them. If there is a random assortment of UXO around then IEDs could be subtly different looking in order to make them distinguishable, but it would still allow them to blend into the environment.
I don't know if its even possible to randomly lace a map with objects, but if so then it would be quite useful. Also this lacing should really be limited to areas where players frequent, so as not to make it totally ridiculous.

LtSoucy · Post by **LtSoucy** » 2007-11-23 02:55

ya I dont want to walk around teh map and get blown up by nothing.

Ill say no on this idea.

Trigz07 · Post by **Trigz07** » 2007-11-23 03:02

A pile of rocks would do. I was watching the military channel and the army was talking about ieds and the types of them.

zardez · Post by **zardez** » 2007-11-23 03:43

yeah but these would only be realistic in places where no one has really been before, like the middle of a desert, you couldn't have them on roads

LeggyStarlitz · Post by **LeggyStarlitz** » 2007-11-23 05:24

LtSoucy wrote:ya I dont want to walk around teh map and get blown up by nothing. Ill say no on this idea.

You see, that's exactly what UXOs are like and they are a very real threat that troops run into.

I think this would also make APCs think twice about how and from what direction they approach an objective.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-11-23 20:55

UXO doesnt explode just because you drive by it. In palestine plenty of kids pick up ordanance and play with it before it explodes. The reason its unexploded is because it has failed to be triggered in the usual way, and this means that it is going to be significantly harder to set off. So while I think it should be some deterrent there needs to be a way to remove them safely, not just have them be anti-everything mines that blow up when you get near them.

LeggyStarlitz · Post by **LeggyStarlitz** » 2007-11-23 22:27

Tell an EOD guy that. I'm sure he'll have a different opinion.

Post by **Ninja2dan** » 2007-11-24 10:59

I am not sure how integrating UXO into PR would work. There would need to be a way to identify it if you looked for it, yet still keep it hidden enough that it doesn't pop into view and become identifiable at 100m.

UXO is just that, unexploded ordnance. This can include artillery shells, missiles, RPG's, tank shells, hand grenades, mines, etc. Anything explosive that has failed to detonate properly. Some UXO can be smashed with a tractor and not detonate, while others might go off from a small static-electricity charge. The common cause of UXO is fuze failure. In some cases I have even seen faulty small-arms ammunition classified as UXO. One case in particular on non-artillery UXO that I encountered was a 25mm faulty round from an M2 Bradley. The round had a faulty primer, as well as faulty powder. The round was left on the range and the vehicle relocated. About 20 minutes later the round went off from the powder slowly cooking off inside the casing, and sure as hell scared the **** out of a few of us.

The use of UXO in PR would also have limited realism. UXO can be detonated in one of two methods. Either by heavy shock or by secondary detonation. Heavy shock is the method used by the SASR M82A1, where a large-caliber rifle round is fired into the UXO to attempt to detonate it via impact shock and rupture. The second method, secondary detonation, is where a secondary explosive charge is placed close to the UXO and detonated, attempting to either detonate or destroy the UXO in the blast. When you see those little robots cruising around Iraq as well as being used by PD Bomb Squads, those robots are placing secondary devices and allowing remote detonation. This is also the most common method the US Army uses for removal of IED's.

If you shoot an AT mine in PR, does it detonate the mine? Nope. If you drop a C4 charge next to an AT mine and set off the C4, does the AT mine detonate? Nope. Adding UXO means you must give players an equal method of removing it safely. If it can't be done, then it's not feasible to add UXO. You will also not find UXO in urban areas as often as you will in open battlefields and deserts, where previous air or artillery strikes had occured. 40mm rounds can be classified as UXO, but most 40mm have a good ratio for detonation. Unless fired into soft sand or water, most projectiles will detonate.

So I think that while the idea might work on certain maps, I have to say it wouldn't work unless the DEV's could code it to work accurately and have a reasonable method of player-enabled removal. That's a lot of work, and I doubt too many others would justify it as being worth the effort.

Post by **Ninja2dan** » 2007-11-24 11:04

Slightly related to this topic....

Edit: Erm, how are Jawas even slightly related to the topic of UXOs? - Masaq x

General Dragosh · Post by **General Dragosh** » 2007-11-24 21:12

Ninja2dan wrote:Slightly related to this topic....

And imagine that at the same time when the guy blows that paper bag...or whatever...the bomb goes of

Antonious_Bloc · Post by **Antonious_Bloc** » 2007-11-24 23:19

In case this doesn't get recognized on the other thread.

Why didn't these make it in as the IED graphic?

http://realitymod.com/images/IED_finalimage.jpg

You guys were talking about IEDs earlier on, and I was curious.

Crusader09 · Post by **Crusader09** » 2007-11-25 03:52

If you shoot an AT mine in PR, does it detonate the mine? Nope. If you drop a C4 charge next to an AT mine and set off the C4, does the AT mine detonate? Nope.

Well, Battlefield 2142 allows you to detonate claymores by shooting at them with a the high caliber sniper rifle unlock. If DICE didn't have to use the source code to perform this feat, the very same can be done for PR only including mines, IEDs, C4, and other player placed explosives.

Other than that, being able to place IEDs would have to include the IED in the kit as you can't just pick one up and add it to your inventory. If you're talking about random explosives place around the map like the ammo caches, then all they can do is just blow up when their "detection radius" is crossed. Kind of like the vBF2 claymore only the team for that claymore isn't defined.

markonymous · Post by **markonymous** » 2007-11-25 14:31

Crusader09 wrote:Well, Battlefield 2142 allows you to detonate claymores by shooting at them with a the high caliber sniper rifle unlock. If DICE didn't have to use the source code to perform this feat, the very same can be done for PR only including mines, IEDs, C4, and other player placed explosives.

C4 would not explode if it was hit by a round.(im not sure but i dont think mines would either)

nicoX · Post by **nicoX** » 2007-11-25 14:49

Ninja2dan wrote:I am not sure how integrating UXO into PR would work. There would need to be a way to identify it if you looked for it, yet still keep it hidden enough that it doesn't pop into view and become identifiable at 100m.

UXO is just that, unexploded ordnance. This can include artillery shells, missiles, RPG's, tank shells, hand grenades, mines, etc. Anything explosive that has failed to detonate properly. Some UXO can be smashed with a tractor and not detonate, while others might go off from a small static-electricity charge. The common cause of UXO is fuze failure. In some cases I have even seen faulty small-arms ammunition classified as UXO. One case in particular on non-artillery UXO that I encountered was a 25mm faulty round from an M2 Bradley. The round had a faulty primer, as well as faulty powder. The round was left on the range and the vehicle relocated. About 20 minutes later the round went off from the powder slowly cooking off inside the casing, and sure as hell scared the **** out of a few of us.

The use of UXO in PR would also have limited realism. UXO can be detonated in one of two methods. Either by heavy shock or by secondary detonation. Heavy shock is the method used by the SASR M82A1, where a large-caliber rifle round is fired into the UXO to attempt to detonate it via impact shock and rupture. The second method, secondary detonation, is where a secondary explosive charge is placed close to the UXO and detonated, attempting to either detonate or destroy the UXO in the blast. When you see those little robots cruising around Iraq as well as being used by PD Bomb Squads, those robots are placing secondary devices and allowing remote detonation. This is also the most common method the US Army uses for removal of IED's.

If you shoot an AT mine in PR, does it detonate the mine? Nope. If you drop a C4 charge next to an AT mine and set off the C4, does the AT mine detonate? Nope. Adding UXO means you must give players an equal method of removing it safely. If it can't be done, then it's not feasible to add UXO. You will also not find UXO in urban areas as often as you will in open battlefields and deserts, where previous air or artillery strikes had occured. 40mm rounds can be classified as UXO, but most 40mm have a good ratio for detonation. Unless fired into soft sand or water, most projectiles will detonate.

So I think that while the idea might work on certain maps, I have to say it wouldn't work unless the DEV's could code it to work accurately and have a reasonable method of player-enabled removal. That's a lot of work, and I doubt too many others would justify it as being worth the effort.

You should be a member of the devs with the knowledge you have about the military.

Crusader09 · Post by **Crusader09** » 2007-11-25 16:41

Well, Battlefield 2142 allows you to detonate claymores by shooting at them with a the high caliber sniper rifle unlock.

Note, I never said C4 or mines as being prone to this unlock. I am referring to this because I'm trying to point out that this can possibly be done for mines, C4, etc. in BF2.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-11-25 21:52

markonymous wrote:C4 would not explode if it was hit by a round.(im not sure but i dont think mines would either)

C4 can be detonated only if you apply great amount of both heat and pressure. A bullet can apply the pressure, but without heat there isn't enough energy to start the reaction. Depending on the type of mine I imagine some are capable of being detonated with a large caliber rifle round, but I wouldn't pretend to know.