Get rid of the damn suppressors.

asiLLasiTgets · Post by **asiLLasiTgets** » 2006-01-19 08:14

I dont think this is an important issue. IRL snipers and special operations would have thier preference on a silencer. Further more pretty much any modern weapon can be fitted with a sound suppressor, especially the m4 carbine (one of the most customizable weapons, note my m4 carbine to the left with reflex optic ,flash suprresor and 16 in barrel for increased preformance). Most assualt rifles come with a threaded barrel which usually has a flash suppressor or muzzle brake attached to it, on these rifles you simply need to unscrew your suppressor/muzzlebraze and replace it with a suppressor. Idealy a special forces operative would have the ability to choose his weapon based on the enviorment he was going to be deployed in. For example going to afghanistan or africa he will take an ak47 to blend in with the indigenous and also to have the ability to find ammunition easily. For an anti terrorist scenario an operative may choose an mp5 for CQB or a M4 depending on the demand of the mission. I would say that more commonly an operative will take a rifle and a pistol with a silencer non attached for his pistol simply for the ability to nuetralize a sentry or to remain stealth in a cqb situation. If you thought the M4a1 SOPMOD was only an airsoft gun, I dont think you should call yourself hitman. Furthermore I dont think you should post anything in the way of a suggestion as to the weapons that you know nothing about, leave it to those of us who have shoot them.

Post by **Hitperson** » 2006-01-19 08:20

asiLLasiTgets wrote:I dont think this is an important issue. IRL snipers and special operations would have thier preference on a silencer. Further more pretty much any modern weapon can be fitted with a sound suppressor, especially the m4 carbine (one of the most customizable weapons, note my m4 carbine to the left with reflex optic ,flash suprresor and 16 in barrel for increased preformance). Most assualt rifles come with a threaded barrel which usually has a flash suppressor or muzzle brake attached to it, on these rifles you simply need to unscrew your suppressor/muzzlebraze and replace it with a suppressor. Idealy a special forces operative would have the ability to choose his weapon based on the enviorment he was going to be deployed in. For example going to afghanistan or africa he will take an ak47 to blend in with the indigenous and also to have the ability to find ammunition easily. For an anti terrorist scenario an operative may choose an mp5 for CQB or a M4 depending on the demand of the mission. I would say that more commonly an operative will take a rifle and a pistol with a silencer non attached for his pistol simply for the ability to nuetralize a sentry or to remain stealth in a cqb situation. If you thought the M4a1 SOPMOD was only an airsoft gun, I dont think you should call yourself hitman. Furthermore I dont think you should post anything in the way of a suggestion as to the weapons that you know nothing about, leave it to those of us who have shoot them.

Don't need to go nuts i am not an american citizen so the only guns i get to shoot are airsoft and .22 live so you don't need to go nuts on me i was only saying that as i could only get pictures of airsoft ones when i google searched just remember i wont get into a pissy when you make a mistake.

just like to point out

THE BLOODY NAME IS "HITPERSON"

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 2006-01-19 08:22

Originally Posted by asiLLasiTgets
I dont think this is an important issue. IRL snipers and special operations would have thier preference on a silencer. Further more pretty much any modern weapon can be fitted with a sound suppressor, especially the m4 carbine (one of the most customizable weapons, note my m4 carbine to the left with reflex optic ,flash suprresor and 16 in barrel for increased preformance). Most assualt rifles come with a threaded barrel which usually has a flash suppressor or muzzle brake attached to it, on these rifles you simply need to unscrew your suppressor/muzzlebraze and replace it with a suppressor. Idealy a special forces operative would have the ability to choose his weapon based on the enviorment he was going to be deployed in. For example going to afghanistan or africa he will take an ak47 to blend in with the indigenous and also to have the ability to find ammunition easily. For an anti terrorist scenario an operative may choose an mp5 for CQB or a M4 depending on the demand of the mission. I would say that more commonly an operative will take a rifle and a pistol with a silencer non attached for his pistol simply for the ability to nuetralize a sentry or to remain stealth in a cqb situation. If you thought the M4a1 SOPMOD was only an airsoft gun, I dont think you should call yourself hitman. Furthermore I dont think you should post anything in the way of a suggestion as to the weapons that you know nothing about, leave it to those of us who have shoot them.

I can't fault your argument, but if you don't think it's an important issue, why'd you go and write a fifteen line essay on it? Just kidding mate, well written.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2006-01-19 16:11

Lets keep it cool guys. I really don't want to have to close this thread because of pointless bickering.

This suggestion seems to be highly controversial, so keep the opinions comming, stay on topic, and let's see what we can come up with.

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2006-01-19 16:13

Indeed, we had another thread closed today for the exact same reasons, learn from that.

Post by **Hitperson** » 2006-01-19 16:47

back to topic

Suppressors = no no

Tom#13 · Post by **Tom#13** » 2006-01-19 19:22

sorry abou being off topic but which thread was closed

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-01-19 19:32

The 'Get rid of the damn shotguns' thread.

Now, back to supressors.

Personally I think it would be good to have them on some weapons (SF maps) if that's realistic. I don't really see the point in giving them to classes that have an unsupressed main weapon.

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-01-19 20:28

I think that the m4 should have a noise suppressor that's atachable(same with the mec and pla spec. op carbines). I'm not basing this on much, but I've heard the bulky noise suppressors unbalance the weapon they are atached to making it a little more difficult to aim, and I also have heard that they reduce muzzle velocity. So if this holds true(and if not feel free to correct me) then these suppressors could have some kind of accuracy and damage penalty(though nothing too great is necessary). Honestly though, I don't see why we need suppressors because all the guns are already dreadfully quiet. Now, the real issue is that the volume of all the weapons needs a drammatic increase to make the game sound real.

As for the whole "spec op's are useless" I have to disagree. They are awsome for a sneaky atack with a chopper. One of my favorite moments in prrm was when I flew up very high in the chinese transport and parachuted behind enemy lines onto a roof near one of the flags in stalemate. I took out many poor USMC who had no idea where I was hiding and I capped the flag.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-01-19 21:15

Agreed with the point on sounds.

As for the spec ops being useless, anyone with a rifle is useful in BF2. In the case you bring up, what makes them useful is their parachutes, and the other classes lack of parachutes. This usefulness will probably see its way to the door if a Pilot class is introduced, maybe replacing the spec ops slot on the menu or atleast depriving them of their parachutes.

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-19 21:19

I think suppressors are good. The best solution would be to make them detachable (like in CS), AND make the rifle firing corrections according to the real life effects of the suppression. In that case someone can choose to use a suppressor to be quiet, more accurate with less recoil, but with the other side effects as well (muzzle heat buildup, altered zero, shortened maximum range).

If the detaching of the suppressors can't be done, then we should use two weapon slots (as with the different shotgun ammos): one for the suppressed weapon, and the other for the unsuppressed.

If someone interested, here's a link about the suppressors in general: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/suppress.html

And for those who don't want to spend much time or reading, a short excerpt

:

Side Effects of Suppression

1) Reduced recoil. Suppressors can be just as efficient as muzzle brakes in terms of recoil reduction. Because suppressors are designed to capture propellant gases and release them slowly into the atmosphere, the usual "punch" of high-velocity gases against the weapon's muzzle are reduced to what could be called a "push." Also, the sheer mass of the suppressor will help to reduce movement at the muzzle. Muzzle brakes, on the other hand, actually increase a shooter's exposure to harmful sound pressure levels by directing muzzle blast back toward the shooter.

2) Freebore boost. The phenomenon known as "freebore boost" occurs in particular suppressor designs and sometimes requires a particular loading of ammunition. It is caused by a primary expansion chamber ahead of the barrel's muzzle which acts as a barrel extension as a bullet passes through it. Propellant gases continue to expand inside the chamber and push the bullet through the baffle stack at a slightly increased velocity. The suppressor can actually increase bullet velocity up to about 40 feet per second (12.1 m/s) depending on the design.

3) Altered zero. Any weapon with a suppressor attached will have a substantially different zero (point of impact) from when the suppressor is not attached. This is due largely to the mass of the suppressor altering the harmonics present in a barrel when a shot is fired. Fortunately, the suppressed zero is usually repeatable. This cannot be avoided. Tandem aiming devices or a device which can calculate two points of impact will be necessary if the weapon is to be used both with and without the suppressor attached.

4) Higher cyclic rate. Any automatic weapon with a suppressor attached will have an increased rate of fire due to the fact that a suppressor is designed to contain propellant gases. This has the effect of increasing pressure within the weapon's operating system, so increasing ROF. Some types of operation (particularly blowback operations) are more sensitive to this effect than others.

5) Increased heat retention. Because a suppressor contains propellant gases, it also contains and absorbs heat. As a consequence, barrel heat dissipation happens at a slower rate. In conjunction with side effect #4, these effects translate to increased barrel wear.

6) Increased fouling. Suppressed weapons need to be cleaned more often due to the fact some of the propellant sediment is forced back into the weapon's action by the suppressor.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2006-01-19 22:28

Impressive research. Thanks!

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-01-20 00:37

Yes, very nice find. Kept me from my homework for a bit though.

Tacamo · Post by **Tacamo** » 2006-01-20 00:59

Most modern suppressors shouldn't reduce the muzzle velocity. Actually in some cases it'll might increase the velocity. The older silencers that didn't use baffles like modern ones probably did reduce the velocity.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 2006-01-20 01:29

I think lonelyjew had the right idea, having it attachable and a damage/accuracy penalty, and Stargun built on it nicely by the idea of putting silenced/unsilenced in different slots.

If there is a change in the 'zero' of a gun, then perhaps the game should show it, placing the point of impact slightly right or left of the laser point. This would mean that with practice, it wouldn't be a problem, and is more realistic.

EDIT: Perhaps we could build 'increased fouling' into the game, perhaps making the weapon jam occasionally or something along those lines, like in America's Army. To fix it, I was thinking, perhaps select another weapon and then it again, to save from a new button having to be used.

Lifetaker · Post by **Lifetaker** » 2006-01-20 04:23

The object of sound suppression is to conceal one's firing position. When I play in my headphones, I can certainly tell where someone is shooting at me from, thereby giving away their position. If their weapon were to be suppressed, well you want to talk about realism, then removing suppressors would be counterproductive. In fact, I think there should be a couple more weapons with the option of silencing. As a friendly suggestion, let's try to focus on ideas that really affect gameplay. I mean, adding or removing silencers really wouldn't make much difference.

Figisaacnewton · Post by **Figisaacnewton** » 2006-01-20 05:44

suppresers don't really work well in game unless you put a lot of coding into them, becaus the sound system is simply not that amazingly good to do it perfectly realistically. the simple way to do it would just be to make it so the sound distance-fades faster than other guns, but its not tottaly accurate that way.

Post by **Hitperson** » 2006-01-20 08:13

Tacamo wrote:Most modern suppressors shouldn't reduce the muzzle velocity. Actually in some cases it'll might increase the velocity. The older silencers that didn't use baffles like modern ones probably did reduce the velocity.

Ive heard of russian supressors that are a can filled with wire wool and they are skrewed after 10 rounds.

Stargun · Post by **Stargun** » 2006-01-20 13:34

'[R-DEV wrote:Lifetaker']The object of sound suppression is to conceal one's firing position. When I play in my headphones, I can certainly tell where someone is shooting at me from, thereby giving away their position. If their weapon were to be suppressed, well you want to talk about realism, then removing suppressors would be counterproductive. In fact, I think there should be a couple more weapons with the option of silencing. As a friendly suggestion, let's try to focus on ideas that really affect gameplay. I mean, adding or removing silencers really wouldn't make much difference.

I think if we can implement the suppressed/unsuppressed weapons in two different slots, then we can think about them as totally different weapons. They can have different sounds, projectile trajectories and muzzle flash (for low light conditions).
The really best suppressors IRL can be so effective, that the loudest sound of the rifle can be the hammer sound while hitting the primer of the cartridge (!!!). And when the muzzle flash AND smoke are also totally hidden by the suppressor, then I think the shooter's position would be completely concealed.

With such an effective suppressor we have to build in some huge penalties for avoid the intensive usage: MASSIVE heat buildup, SIGNIFICANTLY altered zero, and maybe occassional jams (if possible). In that case the operator should decide if he want to "sacrifice" these things for have a suppressed weapon or not, and only choose to use the suppressed weapon when it's really a must.

In such a situation, when one (well hidden) soldier face up 4-5 enemy soldiers at close range, then he should use the suppressor, and very short bursts to have the chance to totally eliminate the threat on his own. If you try to shot on one of the enemies without the suppressor, the you'll be killed by the others in no time.
On the other case if you face only one enemy soldier at higher distance, you can safely use the unsuppressed weapon.

OFF: by the way I'm just finishing my RL suppressor for my Walther CP99 Compact blow-back CO2 pistol based on those documents which I mentioned

Tacamo · Post by **Tacamo** » 2006-01-21 00:38

Hitperson wrote:Ive heard of russian supressors that are a can filled with wire wool and they are skrewed after 10 rounds.

Sounds like an older design. One thing about Russian suppressed weapons are the new ammunitions they have developed specifically for the purpose of low decible shooting. The SP-6 round with it's piston based design and heavy grain bullet is an interesting way to overcome that problem. Pretty much the exact opposite of western design focusing on light high speed projectiles to puncture armor.