possible rebalance for APC and other ideas?

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-01-21 11:28

fuzzhead said to bring this up as separate topic to note the dev so here it is,

in regard to the current problem of APCs killing pretty much any other vehicle on the ground at the moment even against MBTs :

"how about this instead for balancing, upon impact with the APFSDS round from a tank, the APCs driver view shakes, distorts, whatever works to prevent ppl from aiming and shooting back. (the concussion effect from the artilerry might work) and a single APFSDS round brings the APC to the brink of death. Of course it's a lot easier to just instant kill the APC with a single APFSDS round, and technically, since the APCs have no ERA one HEAT should kill them as well (i sincerely believe no APC can withstand a direct HEAT round from a tank btw unless i am wrong).

Bringing the APC to near death state similar to the vodnik's reaction to direct hit from APFSDS round, in addition to the screen effect (to negate the possibility of immediate counter attack from the APC) should give the tankers extra things to consider (if they want to make sure the passenger and the car is dead they have to reload with HEAT else they just fire away with the APFSDS) while on the other hand giving the APC driver the option of either staying in the APC (which is about to explode if he was hit by the APFSDS) and wait for the short duration screen effect to fade off and then attempt to retaliate with the TOW at the cost of the driver's own life (since if he attempt to stay in soon to explode APC and fire back, he won't be able to escape to safety before the APC goes into scrap) or he could just bail immediately and forget about trying to fire back. Of course if he was smacked by a HEAT round, then he would be dead instantly. "

this makes me thought, what about putting the concussion effect for bullets as well?? someone suggested about knocking ppl down into prone after taking direct hit from bullets (though an armoured person probably wouldn't fall down from pistol rounds) but even if you are not knocked down from the shot, the bullet should still register an impact on the person, of course i've never been shot while wearing body armour (and i do pray i never have to test that) and i do realize that there's some report on how ppl took 7.62 mm rounds from AK and not realizing they've been shot until they checked their body armour, but i believe a concussion effect from bullet hit would still be nice.

part of the reason i asked this is because currently, ppl are still not afraid of suppresion fire. I mean, even if i spray the cover spot of my target, he will STILL get up from his hiding while my bullets are wizzing by him and shoot me back unless i am sufficiently close to him to instantly kill him from the hail of bullet simply because he fully realize that he still has a good chance to get up and shoot me dead with a good burst. Another reason is of course because unlike in real life, we can respawn here till the game is over, but i'm sure you get the drift. The LMGs that the support class are carrying were meant to provide covering fire is it not? So providing an incentive for ppl to ACTUALLY take cover from a suppresion fire might make the support class a bit better and actually make the LMGs do what they were supposed to do in the real firefight.

dawdler · Post by **dawdler** » 2006-01-21 12:36

Although I'm a fan of good balance and giving you a chance after the first hit, I think sometimes one should just screw that to force the vehicle in question into its role. The APC should be blown up by a single tank round, period. It is after all just designed to protect infantry in combat. If you encounter a tank... Well, an APC shouldnt encounter a tank at all, there should be a friendly tank in front.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-01-21 15:49

I think that a hit from a TOW or the main cannon of a tank should bring whatever it hits (tanks and APCs) to near death, I'm tired of hiding in the woods at steel thunder, watching an enemy cross a bridge or emerge from the woods, putting a round in him and having him able to fire back. If you can land the first shot, you can have the kill or atleast put the vehicle out of action.

As for concussion effects for being shot i don't know. I think maybe shaking the screen so you cant fire back accurately in order. But if we put blurry vision and concussion effects in everywhere that you realistically could, you'd never see normally in battle. After explosions works for me. Put it in the vehicles if you take a hit from something big.

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-01-21 17:06

I think maybe shaking the screen so you cant fire back accurately in order.

Perfect.

Concussion effects for everything would be over the top ...
But there still needs to be an IMMEADIATE consequence of getting shot, a consequence that will render you less effective for 0.5 of a second, just long enough to get yourself killed if you were doing something stupid ..

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-01-21 18:10

I agree that tank shells need to be beefed up. A hit to the rear of a tank should simply knock it out, a hit to the side, near death, and a hit to the front should hurt the tank, but not way too badly. APC's should die with 1 hit from a tank shell, sraw/javaline/eryx/tow or whatever. The missles on the apc should still be able to kill armor easily though. 1 hit to the rear of a tank should do it it. The lav should, and would be very deadly to a tank if it snuck up on it(yes, realisticly this doesn't happen).

As for the whole after affect of being shot, it's hard to make a cure-all solution. Obviosly a shot to the head(where you helmet saves you) would put you down for some time to say the least, but other more minor shots might not do anything to phase you while your adranaline is up. I like the whole, momentery kick in the screen to throw off your aim. I really don't think a player should be knocked prone because most of the time I don't see that as realistic. The force of a bullet acting on you(unless a bullet proof vest or ceramic plate stops the bullet) is very minor. Remember that the bullet can only hit you as hard as the recoil of the gun. Now, getting wounded could knock you down, but I think in a very tense situation you might know you've been shot but your adrenaline keeps you from feeling it and worrying about it.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-01-21 20:55

the reason i suggested that the APCs don't instantly die from APFSDS round in a single hit, but rather on the verge of blowing up, is more so that tankers actually have to consider switching ammo load. Else they'll use APFSDS round all the time then since i can't think of anything else aside of vodnik that actually warrant the use of the HEAT round.

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-01-21 21:24

Realistically, a heat round would destroy an apc in one hit and kill everyone inside. I do see how you want the game to be more balanced and fair, but I'd rather have the instant death. Anyways, when the full project reality comes out, the maps it'll have will be better suited to more realistic gameplay than the stock BF2 maps.

Szarko · Post by **Szarko** » 2006-01-22 00:10

At the very least make it so that if you shoot an apc in the rear with an APFSDS it should blow up... im tired of trying to sneak up on an apc to shoot them in the rear and they dont blow up...

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-01-22 02:11

=PL=POLSKA wrote:At the very least make it so that if you shoot an apc in the rear with an APFSDS it should blow up... im tired of trying to sneak up on an apc to shoot them in the rear and they dont blow up...

And if its a LAV, it spins around, launches both tows and blows you up

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-01-22 02:36

concussion effect on driver probably should only come when you get smacked by something seriously hurting, ATGMs, tank shell, rockets.

anyway, basically my idea revised is:
1 APFSDS to APC (front,side) == one concussed driver and a smoldering APC about to become a heap of scrap.
1 APFSDS to APC (rear) == one dead APC
1 HEAT to APC (any)== a heap of scrap full of corpse. (same as above)

haven't tested the APFSDS against tanks extensively yet, though it did kill a t-90 with a single shot from the rear.

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-01-22 03:31

Right now I'm fairly happy with tank-versus-tank combat. One shot to the rear kills a tank, a shot to the side sets it on fire, and two shots to the front will score a kill. I'd like to see it stay that way. If the enemy has the presence of mind to keep his best armor facing the threat it -should- make a difference. With one-shot, any direction kills between tanks we'll see a lot of circle-strafing in tank duels.

I do agree that the HEAT round and its affect on vehicles needs to be changed. In my earlier armor-simulator days (Ah! youth.) I distinctly recall that HEAT rounds were used against BMPs and bunkers. Sabots were for enemy T-80's. The reason was quite simple. When a sabot round pierces a tank hull, it tends to go through a critical system, like the engine or turret. Even if it passes right through a tank without hitting anyone, the metal spalling from the forcefully pierced armor, or the remains of the sabot hitting the far armored plate of the tank and bouncing around, renders the crew or systems inoperable. In either case, a tank that can't fight is as good as dead.

Against a thin-skinned hard or even a soft vehicle, sabots overpenetrate and deal far less actual damage. A shell that goes in one wall and out the other doesn't really damage an IFV's effectiveness. The thinner armor yields to the round more readily and doesn't send as much spalling off into the cabin. And while all of this could immobilize the vehicle, the infantry inside the rear cabin would still be alive if a sabot and its spallings did not directly pierce the rear cabin (and if it did, then the IFV would still be able to fight!).

A HEAT round, however, is far more lethal to the mounted infantry and crews. HEAT rounds use a shaped-charged warhead to focus an explosion on a tiny area, bore through the armor and then blast through the interior like a conventional explosion. This is obviously far more dangerous than spalling which could be deflected by internal spall liners or possibly even body armor.

To represent this, when you shoot an APC with a sabot, the infantry and crew inside should still be able to dismount. A sabot hitting the front or side armoring should definately force an evacuation of the APC, so damaging the vehicle directly to burn range is appropriate, with even more damage for the side hits. With a direct shot to the rear of an APC, we have either the option to do the same as a side hit, or instantly blow up the vehicle. I'd argue against the instant detonation since a round going through the rear compartment could easily not destroy the weapons system or engine. One-hit evacuation, not one hit explosion, for the sabot rounds IMO.

For the HEAT rounds, however, one shot to the side or rear should instantly kill the vehicle. No question. A frontal hit should probably place the vehicle within an inch of its life, and only infantrymen with good reflexes on the dismount key should survive the hit. For that matter, HEAT rounds should instantly kill the other vehicles, especially helicopters. A sabot round going through a Mi-17's cargo bay or even cabin is -not- going to kill it. A 120mm HEAT round exploding will. The same goes for attack helicopters and light vehicles.

Likewise to APCs, light transports like the trucks and jeeps should also survive hits from sabots but be completely obliterated by even a near miss by a HEAT.

HEATs hitting tanks should definately yield diminished returns, possibly only a quarter health from the front of a tank, a third to the side and half from a rear hit. Between heavy armor on the front and side to dissipate the round effects to an engine block protecting the crew from a rear hit, I don't think the HEAT impacts we see from the game's weapons would one-shot a tank, save from top-down hits by clever missile gunners and helos.

Of course, I would love to see Bradley's and BMP's put into the mod.

The 25mm chainguns are far too ineffective against other light armor; Bradleys and LAVs easily take out IFV's with their 25mm armor-piercing rounds, Bradleys actually destroying more IFVs than the Abrams in Desert Storm. I'd love to see these systems effectively kill enemy light armor with side or rear hits or even have a chance to take out a tank with a barrage of rear shots. Assuming, of course, that my TOW missiles are out.

... How the hell do we reload the TOWs from inside the tank, anyway? I'd like to see people hop outside APCs with an ammo bag to reload the TOW launchers, another use for the prospective Rifleman class.

Has there been any thought to giving tanks vanilla HE ammunition? I'd suspect evolved Soviet doctrine to still follow their old tanks-versus-emplacement ideas of high-bore, high-explosive weapons.

Oh.

For the love of God, put shell drop back on the tanks. I'm taking out attack helicopters right and left here with this nearly-instant-hit laser rifle. I want to see some intense tank duels hinged on who gets his range zeroed in first. Because really, why put a rangefinder on the tanks when there's absolutely no difference between a 10 and 10,000 foot shot?