more grenades

markonymous · Post by **markonymous** » 2007-12-09 11:14

omg i can still remember the uber spamming of nades in vbf2 and vbf2142

NO MORE NADES, PLZ NO MORE NADES

jerkzilla · Post by **jerkzilla** » 2007-12-09 11:45

Some of you pro-"no more nades!!11!" guys should know that "reality" isn't an argument favoring your side judging by what I've read around here, most notably about a discussion between one of the devs and Duckhunt, who's returned recently from the Marines (as far as I know), where Dunkhunt said something along the lines of "the sad part about nade spam is that it is realistic" and then added something about how they were taught to chuck 3 or 4 grenades in a room before clearing it.
Don't get me wrong, I am AGAINST spammyness but for all I can tell, it's good as it is now.
@OP: just because something is efficient doesn't mean we need more of it.

Alex6714 · Post by **Alex6714** » 2007-12-09 12:38

I agree with the less nades, or, better still, make them much harder to reload. Chuck 4 granades, pick 4 more out of a small bag, chuck again, etc...

Post by **Mongolian_dude** » 2007-12-09 18:11

Death_dx wrote:I believe the amount of available grenades is directly proportional to the amount of sniper/marksman kit requests.

Its an observation not a belief lol.
Not to mention its wrong, because the amount of sniper/marksman is proportional to the amount of players per team.
Nades don't vary like that.

I think nades will be fine.

...mongol...

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-12-09 18:17

IMO, the scoped rifleman should have two, and the new rifleman assistant, which will replace the the stupid SF kit in 0.7 should have 4, to balance scope = range > less nades, ironsights = close range > more nades.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-12-09 19:42

Outlawz wrote:IMO, the scoped rifleman should have two, and the new rifleman assistant, which will replace the the stupid SF kit in 0.7 should have 4, to balance scope = range > less nades, ironsights = close range > more nades.

I could go for something like this. Numbers are negotiable, but I like the more grenades to counter lack of scope/optics and to support their more close quarters role (over the ACOG unit)

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2007-12-10 00:32

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote:I could go for something like this. Numbers are negotiable, but I like the more grenades to counter lack of scope/optics and to support their more close quarters role (over the ACOG unit)

4 nades is way too much though. Reality or no reality, that would turn this game back into vanilla.

IMO, the magic number is 2 or 3 and leave grenadier numbers alone since it is already had to get.

CDN-SMOKEJUMPER · Post by **CDN-SMOKEJUMPER** » 2007-12-10 00:48

Nade spam IS realistic.

Any opportunity to use a grenade to clear an area is prefered and they are not that big so you can stuff your pockets with them. Not to mention that any time there is a vehicle near there will be ammo to be had.

If you are getting spammed move, simple as that.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-12-10 00:58

PR will not become AS bad as vBF2 as far as grenade spam because in vbf2 you always had unlimited grenades(every class) from unlimited ammo packs(support[half your team]). PR you dont have as effective of ammo packs...

But yeah, numbers are negotiable in my opinion, but I think theres room for change. and as Smokejumper said, keep moving.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-12-10 01:21

I think 4 is a good number, and it is realistic to expect an infantryman to carry 4. Also, I disagree that there should be a non-optic class at all, but I definitely disagree that they should have more nades. There is no realistic reason for either a soldier not taking optics, or for a soldier with optics not taking a full load of nades.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-12-10 01:29

Granted, but IRL (just me guessing) you dont have insurgents running around corners that you are turning at the same time too terribly often, I can see how one IRL would want an ACOG, but in PR, it would get old fast having to deal with close fighting with your acog.

Im not saying i know anything about the military, but something tells me its a bit more distant fighting/not as comical as PR encounters tend to be (previously mentioned turning the corner the same time as an enemy, etc.)

Im all for optic and nonoptic...
Maybe the difference there is enough, and ironsights will get users without nades, but I just think that as far as PR is concerned, giving the closer/ironsight troops more grenades (seeing as they would want to take more as they will be closer and need them) is not a bad idea...

Death_dx · Post by **Death_dx** » 2007-12-11 22:00

[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude wrote:Its an observation not a belief lol.
Not to mention its wrong, because the amount of sniper/marksman is proportional to the amount of players per team.
Nades don't vary like that.

I think nades will be fine.

...mongol...

No I meant that the more nades available the more nade spam, thus more people die, respawn and immediately request a marksman/sniper kit so that they will be able to avoid nade spam.

The biggest cause of nade spam is knowing where the enemy is going to be. I.e. in BF2 Karkand everyone spams because they know everyone has one main path to take and they're guaranteed kills. In PR the worst nade spam I've had is in the VCP on Al Basrah.

I think nades should have a longer delay timer everytime you select them, so you can't immediately switch to it and chuck them in half a second.

Wasteland · Post by **Wasteland** » 2007-12-11 22:19

I remember back in 0.4 playing with Atlanta and dbzao on EJOD. We'd toss nades on every single corner we'd approach and then reload with our leet ammo bags. The other team was too busy whoring the M0.4 to catch on.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2007-12-11 22:42

Honestly, Im not sure I was ever really bothered by nade spam. Sure, if youre in a house, and they know it, youre gonna get a ton of nades in your living room.

Like someone said, keep moving. I DO however, think that there needs to be more time in between nades and pullin them out to begin with. I dont think you have one soldier in Iraq tossing three nades one after the other, or even a few seconds apart... something tells me they have three guys throw one, instead of one throwing three...

Longer times inbetween and when first switching to the nades would give squad use of nades(three guys throwing at once) much more of a benefit over one guy lone wolfing/trying to throw a few nades(with a decent wait in between them).

Teamwork = epic win, amiright?

Another thing, when you consider RL, and a squad using nades. They arent out on a long *** mission where they will enounter like 20 skirmishes. A few at most, and many wont warrant nade use. However, in BF2/PR, you have one squad who is constantly (more or less) coming under attack. And due to them often being around a corner or across a street, the use of nades is very effective/needed. Therefore, you use them more often in PR. Because of this, and because in PR we dont really have troops going back to camp for some R&R in which they would get more nades for the next patrol/mission, I think its ok to have a good/realistic supply of nades on a soldier in PR.

I think a lot of people just dont like getting killed by a nade as you cant see who did it. When its a rifle, its like, you saw them, or COULD HAVE seen them, but didnt. Or, you saw them, and they just got you first, etc. With a nade, its often thrown into your room, or over a wall, etc. So theres more to get ticked off about.

Suck it up guys

<3
Okita

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2007-12-11 22:51

Opinion followed by reason...............

Increase the blast shock radius (screen goes blurry) of the frag grenades by about 50% + (mabey even 75 or more) and the damage radius by about 20-30%.

Then decrease the max number of frag grenades carried to 3, so SLs and Riflemen have 3.

Then consider increasing the max number of smoke grenades to 3. If after research this is found to be not realistic, then SL and riflemen would carry 3 smokes (OK reason for this is that players live long, therefore need to carry more ammo, smokes no expection BUT THEN AGAIN is it realistic and should we not encourage players to use this powerful tool more carefully rather than chucking down when they hear a "snap snap snap"!

I think the increase in blast radius can be justified for 2 reasons:
1) The blast radius of real frag grenades will always be greater than the radius in PR, always because in RL it can cause injury well out to 30m and can definitely kill at 10. Therefore any increase of the present radius is realistic but whether it is balanced....
2) The average amount of open ground and size of it and the draw distance on maps has been steadily increasing and therefore the range at which the average engagement takes place has also been increasing. This means getting close enough to throw a grenade at the enemy requires greater skill, therefore decreasing the chance significantly that a random, tactically and cognitively challenged player could kill you with a grenade.

I do realize that there is still alot and always will be urban combat but a well designed map, namely containing lots of small pieces of cover, combined with squads not bunching the fck up means an increase in kill radius would not make urban combat so dangerous to extent that it would become unfun!

O and increased shock radius would make frag grenades a much better weapon for suppering the enemy in close combat!

So in the interests of making suppressing fire from grenades, both frag and GL more effective, an increase in shock radius seems like idea that can only please all players

becuase this along means it is not like you are loosing health, just having your ability to fight temporarily and thoroughly removed! :razz:

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-12-11 23:09

I agree with Okita that there needs to be more time so that one soldier cant just toss all his nades in a spamfest.

I also like Tops idea of fewer, more powerful grenades. I definitely think that nades need a little buffing, but for balances sake reduce the number each one soldier carries.

On a mostly unrelated topic, the reason I don't like the assistant rifleman idea is because I would rather be a corpsman/engineer with no optic than just a dumbed down rifleman with no optic. If I'm going to trade my optic away, I want something in return.

Gyberg · Post by **Gyberg** » 2007-12-12 01:57

[R-CON]OkitaMakoto wrote:Honestly, Im not sure I was ever really bothered by nade spam. Sure, if youre in a house, and they know it, youre gonna get a ton of nades in your living room.

Like someone said, keep moving. I DO however, think that there needs to be more time in between nades and pullin them out to begin with. I dont think you have one soldier in Iraq tossing three nades one after the other, or even a few seconds apart... something tells me they have three guys throw one, instead of one throwing three...

Longer times inbetween and when first switching to the nades would give squad use of nades(three guys throwing at once) much more of a benefit over one guy lone wolfing/trying to throw a few nades(with a decent wait in between them).

Teamwork = epic win, amiright?

Another thing, when you consider RL, and a squad using nades. They arent out on a long *** mission where they will enounter like 20 skirmishes. A few at most, and many wont warrant nade use. However, in BF2/PR, you have one squad who is constantly (more or less) coming under attack. And due to them often being around a corner or across a street, the use of nades is very effective/needed. Therefore, you use them more often in PR. Because of this, and because in PR we dont really have troops going back to camp for some R&R in which they would get more nades for the next patrol/mission, I think its ok to have a good/realistic supply of nades on a soldier in PR.

I think a lot of people just dont like getting killed by a nade as you cant see who did it. When its a rifle, its like, you saw them, or COULD HAVE seen them, but didnt. Or, you saw them, and they just got you first, etc. With a nade, its often thrown into your room, or over a wall, etc. So theres more to get ticked off about. Suck it up guys

<3
Okita

Good post Okita! The thing is that when fighting in confined spaces irl nades are used extremely frequently. I dont think The amount of grenades are unrealistic and I dont think that the time it takes to get a new one up is unrealistic either. Ofcourse it depends on where you carry your nades irl but during my training I could toss a nade and within 3 seconds be ready to throw another one (but I wouldn't expose my arm since the swedish nades go off after 3.5 secs

).

However you have a point consering the use of nades, irl one soldier wouldnt toss several nades into a room, there would be several soldiers doing it at once. However real grenades are better than the ones in PR so one nade would most likely be enough to clear a room.

I am not suffering from "nade-spam"! Seriously, it is realistic, deal with it! And as others have said - KEEP MOVING! DONT GET STUCK! Staying in one position to long during a firefight is a deathsentence...