Realism Resources

Thunderchunk · Post by **Thunderchunk** » 2007-12-23 21:36

You may or may not know of the current situation in Helmand province, Afghanistan. In a Nutshell in the last year and a half there has been some intense fighting and it makes me proud to think that i was there this summer doing the basic infantry job. Loads of videos of the frontline have leaked and i thought ide post some links here as it will help with the accuracy of how the British forces are portrayed in this mod. My own regiment, The Royal Anglian Regiment saw action allover helmand province, mainly Now Zad, Sangin , Kajaki and the Sangin Valley. By searching Royal Anglian on youtube you can find loads of media showing how a basic line infantry battalion operates in a modern war. I would also like to offer my services in terms of military advice. I would love to see more Helmand Province maps in the mod but understandably this would take time. Now Zad would be awesome on PR.

A Company
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKOgwmlr ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLmXLjTP ... re=related

B Company
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbPKzx8cPEc

No doubt there will be more, also watch out for the Ross Kemp documentary which will be shown on Sky 1 late January. He followed B Company through the pre tour training and throughout the tour.

Some things ide personally like to see.

Some British compound Defence Maps, Sangin, Now Zad & ANP Hill. These could allow for some awesome games

A class carrying the GPMG (All of our sections had a GPMG (2 or 3 per platoon) Each gunner carried his gun and 600-800 link depending on situation, some OPS we would have to cover up to 20km of green zone(very hard going) on foot. You can imagine the fatigue!

SA80 with UGL with SUSAT (Everyone on frontline had SUSAT)

AT4 Soldier still having grenades

Is it possible for the British soldier models to have Webbing on, the majority of our soldiers wore Webbing. Also have patrol sacks on their backs.

Squad leaders with radio antennas?

More backblast on AT4s and LAWS

Javelin missles?

Engineers carrying Barmines (for mouseholing into compounds) This is really just replacing the model for the explosives.

51mm Mortar, its mega

81mm mortars, a static emplacement?

DEVS message me if you want some images. I know none of these really add to gameplay, only realism and all would probably requre a great deal of work i just thought i would share my knowledge.

Post by **Dunehunter** » 2007-12-23 21:45

Those are some awesome videos dude, thank you

Gonna let a dev answer about the other questions, though those map ideas sound sweet.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » 2007-12-23 22:01

I have the utmost respect for you thunder and I must point out that thunder alerted me to the fact that the picture in my sig is infact taken from his Regiments tour. Great ideas, i think the Susat is coming on the Grenadier kit and I really hope GPMG could come in but I think at the moment devs have things of more importance, still a man can dream...

Viper5 · Post by **Viper5** » 2007-12-23 22:22

Hey Thunder,

The PR Team currently has a wealth of Military Advisors, from a few US Army guys, a US Marine, some British Army guys, 1 Royal Marine-in-training, etc. Not sure what they have room for in terms of MilAdvisers atm.

As for your suggestions:
Maps- British Maps are being made along with all other factions. Really depends on what the Mapper wants to do.

GPMG- DEVs have discussed adding medium machine guns for all factions on a small scale (I'd guess 1-2 for a 32 player team)
. Dunno whether or not that decision has been made.

L85+SUSAT+UGL- I believe that in the future all factions' grenadiers will have their 4x Scope and a UGL. Just a matter of getting models.

AT4 + Grenades- ATM I think they have no grenades for balance reasons between classes.

Webbing and Radio Antennas- Would require a lot of work to do and wouldnt really enhance anything aside from asthetics, so I'd guess no, but a DEV could prolly answer better.

Backblast- Not sure if this is in .7 (will check tonight) but I know there have been topics about it

Javelin Missiles- At one point during the .5 Beta Process the US had Javelin. Was removed for two reasons: 1. The top-attack mode was buggy and 2. It was incredibly unevening towards the PLA, MEC, INS factions and thus was removed for balance reasons

Barmines- Same idea as C4/SLAMs/Grenades so no real reason to make new model IMO.

Thunderchunk · Post by **Thunderchunk** » 2007-12-23 22:31

All valid points well made, one can only hope, ive got to wait till 2009 to do the real thing again! SO im guessing PR will be done before that still.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2007-12-23 23:10

The gimpy would be ingame except that - it would need to be a two person kit ideally, gunner+ammo man. And the Devs are unwilling to do that as it is next to impossible to have a belt feeding animation

Oh and deploying the weapon is also not possible given the engine.
Shame really

LtSoucy · Post by **LtSoucy** » 2007-12-23 23:30

I would love to see maps like that but they need to remove other British maps though. There is a point when you have too many british maps. And great videos, ORT mmay try to make a ArmA movie using the 2nd one.

Viper5 · Post by **Viper5** » 2007-12-23 23:30

$kelet0r wrote:The gimpy would be ingame except that - it would need to be a two person kit ideally, gunner+ammo man. And the Devs are unwilling to do that as it is next to impossible to have a belt feeding animation
Oh and deploying the weapon is also not possible given the engine.
Shame really

??? Who told you it wouldnt be possible to deploy?

You could deploy it, but have 0 ammo. Then you need an ammo guy to supply it (the Machinegunner kit wouldnt have ammo bags)

LtSoucy · Post by **LtSoucy** » 2007-12-23 23:32

Ya that would be a pain of reloading once you deploy. And didnt someone already ask for it and Devs said no?

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2007-12-24 00:35

Viper5 wrote:??? Who told you it wouldnt be possible to deploy?

You could deploy it, but have 0 ammo. Then you need an ammo guy to supply it (the Machinegunner kit wouldnt have ammo bags)

there is no way of deploying a weapon in the BF2 engine. You can set deviation to near zero when prone to simulate it but that's as far as you can go and it is not particularly realistic AND it can't be done on random statics at all.
And yes that is the 'duh' way of implementing the gimpy - like I said there are no satisfactory animations for it, which in itself is a bad reason to not implement it at all but a reason nonetheless. Otherwise you would have an FN Mag with a never depleting 50 round belt hanging out of it or an empty FN Mag firing invisible bullets ...
Frankly with the FN Mag on the WMIK etc. and Minimis at infantry level, you're not short firepower ... and mortars are much MUCH more important, expecially as an insurgent weapon, for the Devs to concentrate on finishing and implementing for 0.8 hopefully.

Viper5 · Post by **Viper5** » 2007-12-24 01:43

$kelet0r wrote:there is no way of deploying a weapon in the BF2 engine. You can set deviation to near zero when prone to simulate it but that's as far as you can go and it is not particularly realistic AND it can't be done on random statics at all.
And yes that is the 'duh' way of implementing the gimpy - like I said there are no satisfactory animations for it, which in itself is a bad reason to not implement it at all but a reason nonetheless. Otherwise you would have an FN Mag with a never depleting 50 round belt hanging out of it or an empty FN Mag firing invisible bullets ...
Frankly with the FN Mag on the WMIK etc. and Minimis at infantry level, you're not short firepower ... and mortars are much MUCH more important, expecially as an insurgent weapon, for the Devs to concentrate on finishing and implementing for 0.8 hopefully.

Lets just say it is. I know from a version of a mod I played that u can deploy weapons (in this case it was a Mortar) and fire them with limited but suppliable ammo.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2007-12-24 04:52

That was some hardcore stuff thunder. Thanks for the vids.

I have a couple of questions, not really gameplay related.
What was the availability and use of javelins, as compared to AT4s and other rockets? I saw about 3, and I'm assuming you weren't engaging tanks. Just would like to hear the news from the guys who are really using them.
Also, did I spot a BvS 10 or two in the slide shows?
Finally, how often do you toss your GPMGs on tripods?

WNxKenwayy · Post by **WNxKenwayy** » 2007-12-24 05:54

Thunderchunk wrote:All valid points well made, one can only hope, ive got to wait till 2009 to do the real thing again! SO im guessing PR will be done before that still.

What'd you hear about the goings on in the Bagram area? Going to be spending a joyous 15 months in the hills there

Thunderchunk · Post by **Thunderchunk** » 2007-12-24 11:16

WNxKenwayy wrote:What'd you hear about the goings on in the Bagram area? Going to be spending a joyous 15 months in the hills there

Thats a long time, makes my 6 months look pathetic! The biggest thing i heard about there was an airstrike which killed like over 100 Taliban! I would not be able to comment about the kind of fighting you will encounter but if its anything like the greenzone, fix bayonet... That reminds me , fixable bayonet, we had it on loads! (And it did get used on occasions)

What was the availability and use of javelins, as compared to AT4s and other rockets?

Each company had a section of anti-tank soldiers attached and they would usual man the WMIKs as carrying the rockets was immosible due to the distance of greenzone we had to cover (practically inpassable to all vehicles due to non stop, deep, irrigation ditches) Each section had two AT4s, although in the first video you see a 66 being fired. We were issued them on occasion due to there ability to make big holes in compounds.... And hurt the things on the other side, therefore allowing us entry and causing some hurt.

So basically we always had AT4, in larger actions, where we do not just operate IN the green zone (eg breaking into the greenzone) we had a fire support location with our anti tank section up there with Javelins. Also fixed locations had them, really good night sight on them therefore also good in OPs.

As for using them against our Taliban freinds. Its good for taking out vehicles carrying Taliban, a group of enemy in a compound, a single man (it is also a show of force) And the top attack is also good for enemy trenches or irrigation ditches.

The GPMG with tripod was mainly reserved for use in camp defence due to the weight of the tripod. We had to carry 6 litres of water, 48 hours rations, all our ammo (in the case of a rifleman, 8 mags, bandolier (5 mags), belt of 100-200 7.62, 2 he, 1 RP, 1 smoke and a HE 51 bomb) plus the osprey bodyarmour itself weights like 30lbs i think, you dont even notice it by the end of the tour though. You just cant carry much more over the distances we had to, baring in mind we would night insert and fight all day. You would not sleep for atleast 48 hours, kit was scaled to bare minimums, a tripod would not really add much to the fight in greenzone fighting as you could not see much further than the next treeline. The crops would also reach up to 12ft too. Ive got headcam vids of patrolling through 10ft maize (barely seeing the man in front)

Hope this answers those questions

A still from my helmet cam, 66 backblast

The edge of the Green Zone, the the left is the river helmand, hence the marshes, to the right , extremely thick forest and crops.

In a field of cannabis in the upper sangin valley, this is the typical height of the crops in August- Sept whether it be Canabis or maize or whatever.

Post by **Dunehunter** » 2007-12-24 16:13

Thunderchunk, if that's the bombing I heard about, the news I read (CNN) said that 80Taliban fighters were taken out when four bombs were dropped on the trench line they were in.

mrmong · Post by **mrmong** » 2007-12-24 16:30

just have the gimpy for just one person, it could have that restriction used for the 50.cal sniper rifle in basrah that forces you to shoot prone.

Thunderchunk · Post by **Thunderchunk** » 2007-12-24 16:42

[R-MOD]dunehunter wrote:Thunderchunk, if that's the bombing I heard about, the news I read (CNN) said that 80Taliban fighters were taken out when four bombs were dropped on the trench line they were in.

Thats sounds like a separate incident, i was talking about a TB meeting that was held which was whacked. Its all good news really...

just have the gimpy for just one person, it could have that restriction used for the 50.cal sniper rifle in basrah that forces you to shoot prone.

Exactly, i dont think anyone in our company ever fired it in a contact from the hip or anything, there is no point. Its such an important weapon for the british infantry it seems like madness not to include it.

WNxKenwayy · Post by **WNxKenwayy** » 2007-12-24 17:30

From all the intel we've gotten its mostly all hill fighting, which is going to suck

Beats route clearance missions though

One problem I've encountered with trying to make the full weapon selection realistic is that it would completely imbalance the game towards the Brit/US.