Rifleman Balancing

Post by **Drav** » 2008-01-05 17:52

So, it seems most people are picking scoped rifleman over the ammo carrying variant, and this is hardly surprising. So why not make the two classes a little more suitable for a specific role.

Ranged rifleman.
Scope
1 grenade
No ammo packs

Rifleman
Ironsights
4 grenades
2 smoke
Ammo pack

So obviously the second rifleman is going to be more suitable for CQB/Assaulting, while the ranged rifleman will have the edge in longer range firefights. I think this will help make the non scoped rifleman kit a little more useful, while toning down the scoped riflemans kit just a tiny bit more.

Thoughts?

Post by **Drav** » 2008-01-05 18:07

Ye maybe so. One grenade and no smoke might be a suitable compromise, they are still riflemen after all?

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-01-05 18:14

So basically you can either be effective at range OR be a nade spammer. Swell.

The reason I don't use the non-optic rifleman kit is because for the most part I want to be able to engage targets at range, and the non-optic kit only gives you an ammo drop but keeps you from having any effective range. It can sometimes be useful, but realistically its better to get some supplies, work from FBs and bunkers, and set up RPs. If I'm not going to have an optic I want some serious firepower in return, like the engineer, or be able to help my squad a lot, like the medic.

So what I'm saying is that by totally nerfing the optic class you just make it suck, you don't actually address the reasons the non-optic class is not used as often.

six.point.8 · Post by **six.point.8** » 2008-01-05 18:30

Perhaps stick an eo-tech holo sight on the ammo rifleman class? Then everybody would want to be the ammo rifleman. (I know I would)

Post by **Jaymz** » 2008-01-05 18:36

six.point.8 wrote:Perhaps stick an eo-tech holo sight on the ammo rifleman class? Then everybody would want to be the ammo rifleman. (I know I would)

The QBZ and G3 families cannot mount reflex sights. Although Switzerland (I think, might be another country, been a while since I read about it) smother their G3's in piccatiny rails, lol. Even then, the advantages of a reflex sight are hard to model in game.

Post by **Deadfast** » 2008-01-05 18:41

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:The QBZ and G3 families cannot mount reflex sights. Although Switzerland (I think, might be another country, been a while since I read about it) smother their G3's in piccatiny rails, lol. Even then, the advantages of a reflex sight are hard to model in game.

What about a tape then ?

(not serious)

Anyway, I thing that removal of smoke nade accompanied by smaller number of frags in Scope variant might help a bit

Expendable Grunt · Post by **Expendable Grunt** » 2008-01-05 20:22

When I'm not leading, I'm ammo carrier. And I always make sure I have one in my squad.

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2008-01-05 20:49

I think this sounds like a pretty good idea.

Post by **Masaq** » 2008-01-05 22:23

Jonny wrote:The fact that you have a scope at all is a huge advantage over the non scoped rifleman, so having no frag grenades is an appropriate trade.

How many of you see smoke grenades and think 'OMFG!!11!!!1!! SM0KE grenades!11! WOW!'. Seriously. How attractive do you really think they are. Compared to a scope.

Also, I would like to see the unlock system used with the default rifleman being the non-scoped version, so that people wont just look at the scope.

Hell yes I use smoke.

You seriously telling me you think smoke is a waste of space?

*blink*

Smoke is like, the #1 life saver after medics.

Smoke oh smoke, how do I love thee so? Let me count the ways...

Smoke can be used to blind defenders when you're attacking them, so they can't shoot you
Smoke can be used to blind attackers (by throwing it OUT and AWAY from you, NOT dropping it on the flag) when you're defending, so they can't shoot you
Smoke can be used to put a screen up between you and tanks/APCs/snipers/infantry a long away away, so they can't shoot you
Smoke can be used to put the fear of god into tanks and APCs (as they think it means an engineer is about to come C4 them), making them leave the area (hopefully to someplace where they can no longer shoot you)
Smoke can be used to attract attention of enemy tanks/APCs/infantry who assume you're behind it - whilst you head in the other direction. Meaning they can't shoot you.
Smoke can be used to hide critically wounded bodies that have no cover so you can revive them (meaning the enemy can't shoot you)

Seriously, are you telling me that if you're trying to move over an open space, you've been spotted by the enemy and you have shots incoming, your first instruction via TS/VOIP *isn't* "SMOKE UP!" ?!?

Smoke is like, god's gift to infantrymen. It stops you getting shot.

Disclaimer: Smoke will NOT stop you getting shot, really. It just makes a big cloud of grey stuff, but it WILL stop people from being able to shoot *accurately* at you

Post by **Drav** » 2008-01-05 23:16

Well ye I like smoke too, but I can see why people dont use it in public play. My point was really to try and make the two classes a bit more different, and it seems from your responses that maybe the way to do that is to remove some (or all) grenades from the scoped rifleman?

Bloodbane: Grenades are always going to be used. Especially in CQB. They are very useful for killing people without putting yourself in harms way. And seeing as the scoped rifleman has 4 grenades at the moment as well as his scope, hell yes I think it would be an improvement to take some or all of them away.

Post by **Bob_Marley** » 2008-01-06 00:16

[R-DEV]Jaymz wrote:The QBZ and G3 families cannot mount reflex sights. Although Switzerland (I think, might be another country, been a while since I read about it) smother their G3's in piccatiny rails, lol. Even then, the advantages of a reflex sight are hard to model in game.

The G3 can mount a RD or Reflex sight, such as an M68, there are a range of claw mounts made by several companies which either have mounting rings for them or a 20mm rail to attach one to.

And its Norway that added an RIS system to their G3s, its a stop gap measure until their new HK416s arrive.

Also, you neglected to mention that the L85 also cant mount a reflex sight, as it uses a 19mm dovetail mount rail rather than the NATO standard 20mm M1913 rail, and so can only mount the SUSAT & SA80 open sights.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-01-06 01:22

Taking away the optic rifleman's grenades turns him into a (crappier) marksman. This would make the optic rifleman redundant. He would be LESS effective in the assault than a marksman, because marksman have 2 frags, and have less effective firepower at range (although he would have automatic fire).

I don't think that the optic rifleman should get an ammo bag, I just don't think he should be nerfed so everyone feels more like taking the non-optic rifleman. If you, or your SL, think the need for ammo outweighs your need to be effective at range, take the non-optic kit. Otherwise, keep the optics. The only kits that really need a resupply often are support, LAT, and HAT.

To be honest, I'd be happy for a change in the status quo if I thought it reflected reality better or helped gameplay. This would just nerf a class in order to make another class more desirable. If you don't see the need for more ammo for your squad, there is no reason you should be taking a resupply kit. This is not about balancing the two rifleman kits out, its about balancing your need to be an effective infantryman at range against your squads need for ammunition.

Post by **Drav** » 2008-01-06 02:23

Ah but I'm not saying take them all away......I'm saying just give em less. Like just 1 or 2

Personally I'd say marksmen should only get 1 too, but thats another story

This would then mean you're balancing the need for a scope against having lots of grenades and smoke and ammo. And I think it would help gameplay because squad assets are further spread around, rather than scoped riflemen having almost everything they need on them.

At present the ammo rifleman is just a walking ammo bag and thats it. So while medics are reviving and healing, and engineers are blowing up and fixing stuff, and riflemen are blasting away with their shiny scopeguns and nading entire villages, youre stuck with the HAT guy shouting at you for not ramming his tube hard enough. Now while certain folk pay for that kind of treatment, its just not me

Teek · Post by **Teek** » 2008-01-06 02:32

An upgrade to the Ammo Rifleman is the Automatic Rifleman. they both have ammo and frags.

Wolfe · Post by **Wolfe** » 2008-01-06 02:38

.8 will have scopes on nades

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-01-06 02:55

How does a scoped grenade help? That just seems more challenging.....

I think adding a red dot sight to the ammo man class would be cool, but unfortunately have been informed that for most armies it would be unrealistic (but not for the US +1).

Anyhow, I think that right now the only difference between the rifleman classes is that the optic helps his squad through volume and accuracy of fire, while the non-optic helps his squad by supplying heavy weapons and close in support. So I think that's balance enough right there.

Post by **Jaymz** » 2008-01-06 03:05

[R-MOD]Bob_Marley wrote:The G3 can mount a RD or Reflex sight, such as an M68, there are a range of claw mounts made by several companies which either have mounting rings for them or a 20mm rail to attach one to.

And its Norway that added an RIS system to their G3s, its a stop gap measure until their new HK416s arrive.

Also, you neglected to mention that the L85 also cant mount a reflex sight, as it uses a 19mm dovetail mount rail rather than the NATO standard 20mm M1913 rail, and so can only mount the SUSAT & SA80 open sights.

forgiveness please! :d uh: