Desire for realism, or difficulty?

[Tostitos]

Don't let the thread get hijacked into the whole "training can't prepare you for combat" thing. It's been done to death everywhere and I don't need this thread to turn into a bunch of people arguing their opinions based on personal experience that can vary all over the place (I've known guys who said that recoil wasn't any worse in combat, who'da thunk?).

It's about people who want their version of realism and put down everyone else who doesn't go for what they think it is, and how those people often are 15 year olds who play airsoft.

I also read the minigun thread where a 15 year old tag-teamed with a guy in the military on the subject of miniguns on Blackhawks. You really need to read the posts there to get an idea of the attitude I'm talking about, especially when he sneeringly asks someone to 'graciously admit your incorrectness' or the like.

Yes, the military mounts miniguns on their helicopters if they're going to be using them to assault a goddamn hostile beach, and just because one guy from the military popped up to say otherwise doesn't mean squat diddly ****. I know a former navy seal - yes, checked him with authentiseal - who still believes that you can fire 5.56 in an AK47, does that mean it's true?

I'm gonna throw out another one: people complaining about crosshairs.

What, so now I'm playing as a soldier who has no idea where his rounds are going to end up even within three or four yards? I can make a ragged hole at 15 feet without even looking at the sights of my USP. I can do better with a rifle. We're not talking about calm, zen like stuff here. I can do it on the move and with plenty of distraction, and so can nearly anyone else who shoots regularly.

Not to say that crosshairs should be usable for shooting at distance like in vanilla BF2, but I can tell where I am going to shoot at close range, in the overall area, at worst.

In the game, what with the funky gun angle, that is taken away, so we use crosshairs to represent targeting. With sights and crosshairs, we can see where we're shooting close and need to use basic alignment after 20 feet and sights a bit further. That's just how it goes, ask anyone who has been in extreme CQB. Better yet, sign up for a three day 2000 round class with FOF drills and see what you end up having to do to 'survive'.

But, people who don't know anything about it aside from what "feels" right are never going to be happy unless we're all playing as a retard who has no effin' idea where they're pointing their gun at all unless they have it shouldered.

At least our characters get to run for a proper amount of time. I bet there's people who are upset that they don't have to stop and puke every five seconds of running. Seriously, I bet if I search I'll find at least two posts like that.

[hx.bjoffe]

Listen, i like your writing, i'm sure you're good at whatever you do.
Nice productive critisism.
But here i think you step off.

Do you need the crosshairs to locate the middle of you screen? It might be just me, but what's your angle on that?
Do you like the game and want to improve it, or are you here to put off gamers 'who think they know ****' eg. PR&ArmA-forums?
Desire to contribute, or bash?

I seriously can't figure out, when all about negativism.

[bobfish]

I'll leave the recoil/accuracy discussion for others, I'm not too fussed with accuracy at range, it's the people who prone dive or run n gun that irritate me.

What I do think though is that iron sights are far too common in PR, I have poor eyesight, even with the screen right in front of me I struggle to focus / look past an object in front of me. So I am just plain useless with iron sights, my eyes can't focus beyond them because I can't get close enough to them to put them out of sight / focus. If I want to be a good shot in PR I have to use an optic or scope of some kind and my scores reflect this quite a lot.

It also irritates me that on some occasions I end up letting my squad down by not picking a more useful kit simply because it has iron sights.

[Hail_831]

I have been playing PR for about 2 years now and have to say that i have supported every version the devs have released so far. However this latest version is clearly my least favorite and feels like its a step back in the progress to the final version what ever that may be.

The ideas are great but IMO the execution is not there. Adding delays, restictions, and decreased accuracy. All make sense to increase the games reality. But with lack of visual sigh it leaves many players frustrated. I understand that scope sway is not possible(a hard coded issue). But there has to be a better way to implement the hast of battle then simply make bullets shoot out of your gun in every which way as your scope sits solid as ice on the enemies chest. There is a fine balance between making a game true to real life and making a game clunky. Just look at Arma. When I play Arma, i play it because its a combat sim however its very clunky.

The thing that has kept me coming back to PR is its seamless balance between reality and game play. However this latest patch has added reality but made gameplay much more clunky. This is a shame as i feel that this is the Bf2 engines only real advantage. If the goal is to create a sim this engine might not be the best choose. If the goal is to create a seamless balance of reality and gameplay 0.6 was on the money.

WARNING!!! This is my opinion and mine only. I understand the insane amount of work the Dev team puts into this game. This is there game I'm just here for the ride.

[BLUFOR-73]

wasnt recoil the problem here? yeah its too much. anyone whos ever shot rifles in real life knows that

[gazzthompson]

wasnt recoil the problem here? yeah its too much. anyone whos ever shot rifles in real life knows that

I'll leave the recoil/accuracy discussion for others, I'm not too fussed with accuracy at range, it's the people who prone dive or run n gun that irritate me.

ive never fired a rifle in a combat zone. i have fired a 7.62 target rifle and 5.56 LSW and SA80, but i think the recoil is fine, people expect(i assume) that the rifle will aim its self, just counter act the recoil like u would IRL by bringing the mouse down as u fire. but i trust the DEV's military advisor's on the recoil issue as they have alot better experience than most of us here in firing in a combat zone.

also crosshairs? i can (roughly) fire unscoped in PR with relative accuracy...

[Oink-Blabber]

The crosshairs are sort of realistic, I mean when you have a gun you can point it and not have to look down the sights and have an idea where there bullets going to go. I'll admit 2 0ut of the three places I lerned this was with Airsoft and BB-Guns, but wthe other third, when your in the bad backstreets you don't really have time to look down the sights. I've never been in a warzone, but I have taken a bullet to the leg and gave some other guys airconditioning with "Mr. 9", and never looked down the sights. So I think crosshairs represent dead reckoning as I geuss you could call it. I've been in an several actual shootouts, but I'm not going to say I know what combat is like on the battlefield, and any jackasss with an airsoft gun has no inkling of what it is like.

[gazzthompson]

The crosshairs are sort of realistic, I mean when you have a gun you can point it and not have to look down the sights and have an idea where there bullets going to go. I'll admit 2 0ut of the three places I lerned this was with Airsoft and BB-Guns, but wthe other third, when your in the bad backstreets you don't really have time to look down the sights. I've never been in a warzone, but I have taken a bullet to the leg and gave some other guys airconditioning with "Mr. 9", and never looked down the sights. So I think crosshairs represent dead reckoning as I geuss you could call it. I've been in an several actual shootouts, but I'm not going to say I know what combat is like on the battlefield, and any jackasss with an airsoft gun has no inkling of what it is like.

its really simple to shoot unscoped in PR and bf2 though, it comes out of the center of the screen

[bobfish]

There is a mod for HL2 that adds weapon aiming as well as looking to mouse movement. Small movements of the mouse move the cross hair and large movements turn your head. It's awful, bloody hard to aim where you want and slows down looking around, so I'm quite happy with the normal center of the screen is where the gun is always pointed approach of BF2

[S.P.C-[Reality]-]

CAS_117;577447']YouTube - FPS Doug - BOOM HEADSHOT Megamix

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKW3-gU5_7g&NR=1[/youtube]

[Gyberg]

Listen, i like your writing, i'm sure you're good at whatever you do.
Nice productive critisism.
But here i think you step off.

Do you need the crosshairs to locate the middle of you screen? It might be just me, but what's your angle on that?
Do you like the game and want to improve it, or are you here to put off gamers 'who think they know ****' eg. PR&ArmA-forums?
Desire to contribute, or bash?

I seriously can't figure out, when all about negativism.

Im with bjoffe on this one... You write well, make some good points and so forth but, you say that people with real life military experience dont know shit and still you want us to listen your experiences?

I've fired thousands upon thousands of rounds during my military training and I know that hitting a target on the range from 300 meters isn't as hard as many people think. However I also know that in the live combat training I've gone through where targets might be visible only for a second or two at 250m it isn't the same thing. You dont have a perfect firing position and the time you have to line up the sights perfectly isn't the same as on the range. Add to this heavy breathing from running like crazy and you get the picture. And yet this was only simulated.

I believe that if you add the stress of a real life combat situation to what I just described, hitting a target is definetely harder than on the range. The best way to simulate this is doing something that is quite close to what PR does, not saying it's perfect today but the mod is still at 0.7 and there is plenty of time to get this to perfection.

[Tostitos]

-;578011']lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKW3-gU5_7g&NR=1[/youtube]

Stop trolling my thread.

Thanks! :}

[Razick]

Im with bjoffe on this one... You write well, make some good points and so forth but, you say that people with real life military experience dont know shit and still you want us to listen your experiences?

I've fired thousands upon thousands of rounds during my military training and I know that hitting a target on the range from 300 meters isn't as hard as many people think. However I also now that in the live combat training I've gone through were targets might be visible only for a second or two at 250m it isn't the same thing. You dont have a perfect firing position and the time you have to line up the sights perfectly isn't the same as on the range. Add to this heavy breathing from running like crazy and you get the picture. And yet this was only simulated.

I believe that if you add the stress of a real life combat situation to what I just described, hitting a target is definetely harder than on the range. The best way to simulate this is doing something that is quite close to what PR does, not saying it's perfect today but the mod is still at 0.7 and there is plenty of time to get this to perfection.

Finally thank you for clearing it up and putting it in prespective.

[Zybon]

You dont have a perfect firing position and the time you have to line up the sights perfectly isn't the same as on the range.

Erm.. isn't this what.. you know.. AIMING at the enemy is for? This is something that should be handled by the player not the game.

If there is a way to link accuracy to the suppression effect I think it would be good... otherwise the arguments are just too situational.

[BloodBane611]

Erm.. isn't this what.. you know.. AIMING at the enemy is for? This is something that should be handled by the player not the game.

I agree. Some deviation is necessary, but I'm not a fan of lying prone with a G3 and holding my sights on a guys face 150 meters away for 3 seconds, only to have that shot hit 4 feet from him.

I will also say that the G3 and AK recoil is abominable, and makes the G3 effectively useless in any kind of CQB situation. Also, it makes very little sense to have reduced muzzle climb the closer the sights are to your face.

But enough of that rant. I think for the most part that the DEVs have taken a step forward here. Some of the weapons are much harder to control than others, but overall I think that the recoil and accuracy of most of the weapons is very good. Overall some tweaks need to be made, but I don't think that the DEV team is far off.

[Gyberg]

Erm.. isn't this what.. you know.. AIMING at the enemy is for? This is something that should be handled by the player not the game.

And what is you suggestion to simulate ALL the factors talked about in my post within the bf2 engine?

[BeerHunter]

I agree. Some deviation is necessary, but I'm not a fan of lying prone with a G3 and holding my sights on a guys face 150 meters away for 3 seconds, only to have that shot hit 4 feet from him.

But thats why armed forces around the world abandoned bolt actions and went to semi's..your ROF.

If you're sighting an enemy you start shooting. Aiming is only for the range/range officer and qualification score. At 150M 20-30 rounds are bound to hit SOMETHING!

On topic , I love the deviation built into .7. Some of the long range gun battles have been intense and very realistic. What other game allows you to engage at a distance , empty your 2 or 3 mags at an enemy that keeps relocating or ducking behind cover then break off the engagement without incurring or inflicting any casualties?? And this happens quit often IRL ambushes.

(oh and you'd break off if you're engaging infantry and one of their heavy armor units pops up over the horizon)

[BloodBane611]

If you're sighting an enemy you start shooting. Aiming is only for the range/range officer and qualification score. At 150M 20-30 rounds are bound to hit SOMETHING!

What I was saying is that the accuracy of the G3 does not reflect its real life counterpart well at all, and that if I so choose to aim, I should in fact hit my target.

[bobfish]

Please remember there are some aspects of the BF2 engine that can't be changed. Aiming the cross hair on the enemy is easy, very easy, and is a hardcoded design of the engine. Making your bullet hit (deviation) is the only thing that can be altered to make it a little harder and a little more realistic, they can't add sway, breathing, or other issues that prevent such 1 second pinpoint aiming in real life to the game because of the engine limitations.

[indigo|blade]

100% agree with OP. Well said sir.

On a related note, where is eggman??? Did he have any input on this release?