Dont Civis look too much like insurgents?

[Pain]

Its a bit frustrating when im holding my fire to see if that guy im looking at is a civilian or an insurgent. I look at him, he looks at me.... then i see a white flash and end up with an rpg in my mouth... If i was outside, i would pull out my binoculars, but from a vehicle or tank or whatnot you really cannot tell the difference.... Graphics card i have are beautiful, im running SLI mode with two Gforce 8600's and i have pentium 4 chip, not the best but it dies its job. So now in order to run some maps well i need to tune my graphics a bit to a good workable point, but it messes up with the whole civilian thing... Can i ask if it will be possible to perhaps do a lil skin workaround with the civilians. On Albrashar civilians are getting absolutely slaughtered. No civilian survives, they have no point, for the british its as if they dont care, but its because they cant see... That red turbine only shows up at a freakin distance thats close, but them RPGs will fire from a loooong distance away, making it really weird....

Ok what i mean is this. Youre in an APC, and u got ur eyes on a guy. He looks like insurgent but youre not sure so u keep ur aim on him but dont fire till he comes closer. Now the guy just fires an RPG and it kills u because he can touch u at that distance, but ur still wondering what the heck happened and why...

I feel a skin workaround will let the british know not to fire on civilians. The noobs still dont get it that they are waiting 2 minutes to spawn because they just killed a civilian, and they dont have mics and they never read the text.... The experienced players will still kill civis just cuz of that skin problem.

sorry for the long rant.

but let me know what you think...

wouldnt it help to really set the civilians role if people stop actually killing them?

You have to use real combat tactics to survive. This means tanks dont advance without support (other vehicles or infantry). They can spot targets. All tanks or apcs are just infantry support cannons stationary or moving in pr...

If you get contanct by driving a jeep dont stop moving and try to get to cover. Then you and your team should confirm the contact as enemy or civi, after that you have to plan next steps.

[Teek]

ok... the new skins are more realistic

BUT

at 200 hundred meters it is impossible to distinguish the difference between a insurgent shooting at you and a civi. sometimes there will be a group of insurgents with civis in the middle. they will be shooting at you and when you return fire, you kill a civilian. unless the devs find a way to make guns not disappear at 100 meters or so, then there has to be a way to tell the difference.

As it should, like in reality.

take Somalia as a example; there was as much civis as insurgents in some groups making it very hard to tell the difference.

[OkitaMakoto]

Civies and Insurgents look alike in RL, I dont see why its a problem in PR. Watch your fire. You might have to not shoot someone if you dont know. Dont take a 1000 meter shot if you cant tell. Dont take a 300 meter one if you cant tell.

Its all there for you to weigh and decide if its worth the potential risk of killing a civilian...

[BloodBane611]

+1 for Okita's comment.

A huge part of the effectiveness of an insurgency is the inability to tell them apart from the regular population. It's a realism mod, deal with it.

[Zybon]

Weapons (besides pistols) don't "disappear" when you are no longer actively using them in reality.

The body language (i.e. battle posture) of a civilian isn't the same as someone actively fighting in reality.

And of course civilians aren't purposefully running INTO your fire to try to get killed in reality.

take Somalia as a example; there was as much civis as insurgents in some groups making it very hard to tell the difference.

And those groups were gunned down when there was no other option

[ralfidude]

in response to OKITA, i wouldnt shoot, but the problem is if i dont shoot, and i move back without killing them, i almost ALWAYS get shot down by their rpg.... how the hell is that game play?

Also, somebody mentioned that tanks and APCs should communicate, well that is true, and i love that, but the soldiers on foot cant designate the civis from hostiles for my team anymore, unless they tell me through VIOP, which right now is quite rare on some servers, this poses a big problem...

[ReaperMAC]

in response to OKITA, i wouldnt shoot, but the problem is if i dont shoot, and i move back without killing them, i almost ALWAYS get shot down by their rpg.... how the hell is that game play?

Well, there is something wrong with the way you are using your APC/Challenger then. You do realise that they have a zoom feature right? Works the same like binos too, shouldn't be THAT hard to spot something in their hand, or the way their hand is positioned with the zoom. Your driver/gunner should also be verifying with you just to make sure it is a(n) insurgent/civilian too.

Also, where is your infantry support? They've got binocs/SOFLAMs too, they can always let you know whether it is a civilian or not and can take them down before they get into range to fire their RPG.

If they are able to kill you with an RPG, it's not them, it's you. APCs *should* be able to take 2 RPG rounds before they go down. Additionally, when they fire, you can always spot the smoke trail from the direction they come from, which helps confirming your suspicions that the player is infact an insurgent.

If a server is causing the problem for you (no one with VOIP, etc.) then either play on another one or bring some friends that you know have VOIP and play!

[00SoldierofFortune00]

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Cheeseman;590956']Ok in .6 you people were belligerent as to why the civilians looked so stupid and why they didn't resemble the guys on the insurgent side. Now that they look similar to insurgents you people are once again complaining. In reality you can't always distinguish between an armed individual and an innocent bystander in the heat of battle. That's why it's your responsibility to check before you pull the trigger. Don't just aim and shot, this isn't Counter Strike or Call of Duty 4, you're given weapons, but if you’ve chosen PR then you have also chosen teamwork and reality as your platform so it's your responsibility to have a shy trigger for the sake of your team and the person on the other end of the gun.[/quote]

I don't recall anyone complaining back in 0.6 The only thing people complained about was that civilians were being killed too much. You think this has honestly fixed the problem lol?

[quote="Teek""]As it should, like in reality.

take Somalia as a example; there was as much civis as insurgents in some groups making it very hard to tell the difference.[/quote]

That's a horrible example. In real life, everyone doesn't dress the same and civilians aren't trying to get killed. You can also tell who is carrying a weapon and who isn't with the exception of pistols. And I believe the majority of civilians that are killed are killed by bombs, not infantry.

And like someone else said, you cannot see their weapons at a distance. Now, unless you want to stop in the open or even behind cover to see if they are a civilian while getting shot at, fine by me, but that is not my idea of "tactics" or "realism."

[OkitaMakoto]

I don't recall anyone complaining back in 0.6 The only thing people complained about was that civilians were being killed too much. You think this has honestly fixed the problem lol?



That's a horrible example. In real life, everyone doesn't dress the same and civilians aren't trying to get killed. You can also tell who is carrying a weapon and who isn't with the exception of pistols. And I believe the majority of civilians that are killed are killed by bombs, not infantry.

And like someone else said, you cannot see their weapons at a distance. Now, unless you want to stop in the open or even behind cover to see if they are a civilian while getting shot at, fine by me, but that is not my idea of "tactics" or "realism."

I heard plenty of people complaining that the green and white civilian was lame/unrealistic. Many wanted the civilian to look more like one of them. it add tension, it adds hesitation, these are a part of reality.

Sure, not everyone dresses the same, but the fact remains that they will all look different, therefore, it will STILL remain difficult to distinguish civilian from insurgent. You said it clear as day right there. PR isnt about to find a way to have unique 64 players, thats just stupid. This is as good as it is gonna get.

Cant see their weapon? Dont fire. If they are looking at you from a distance, take your chance, if you here bullet snaps/cracks, take 'em down and hope for the best, i dont know what else to tell ya. They have an AK for christs sake, if they are far enough to not see their gun[which RARELY happens to me in any noticeable way] then they are gonna have a hell of a time hitting you unless you are just standing there with your thumb up your ****.

[gumball]

Maybe it is just my game, but the insurgents look like civies from a range. Only when they get so close does the kit pop up on them and the gun appears. Increasing the kit/gun draw distance would make this better.

I was about to post that. I think it is impossible to draw kits(weapons and tactical vest..etc) do to bf2 engine. I remember reading another Thread where someone asked about how kit's render and i think a dev (i think) said that that because of BF2 engine limitations, kit rendering along with grass and bushes cant be done. Don't quote be on this but that is what i remember.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

Insurgents have to have some advantages and no formal combat uniform is one of them.
Dont UK always win this map anyway, if anything the penalty for shooting civilians isnt that harsh but then again pr civs dont run from live fire, etc

[gumball]

The best way to fix that is to punish the civ's for getting shot and not awarding them. Once that is done then you wont have civilians jumping infront of tank fire or being meat shields.

[ralfidude]

lol to that gumball, lol. Ok well in APC under zoomed view if it DOES look like hes holding a gun il shoot, but if it turns out that it was a civilian im going to come back and smack a *****.

[OkitaMakoto]

The best way to fix that is to punish the civ's for getting shot and not awarding them. Once that is done then you wont have civilians jumping infront of tank fire or being meat shields.

Civi when killed should have an increased spawn, even if shot. AND the brits should be punished. it should be bad for both sides for it to happen. The brits lose tickets and the dead civi should get a decent respawn. That way the civi wouldnt want to die, and the brits wouldnt want to shoot them.

But, alot of these ideas are workarounds and leave a lot to be desired. I just see a NEW problem arising when you change what is the current problem, you know?

[Officer_Dufus]

I kill civilians anyway. The long spawn gives me the opportunity to take a leak.

That way nobody gets angry when you're AFK because you had to take a leak while you spawned

[OkitaMakoto]

I kill civilians anyway. The long spawn gives me the opportunity to take a leak.

That way nobody gets angry when you're AFK because you had to take a leak while you spawned

And your team suffers for it. Thanks. You lose tickets for killing Civilians, if I remember correctly, and if that wasn't changed.

[Officer_Dufus]

Oh well, at least I get to relieve myself

[BloodBane611]

I agree okita. Increase civi spawn times, that'll keep them both off the field and make them thing twice about just jumping in front of every stray bullet.

Also, I do remember the complaining okita, you're not imagining things.

Anywho, making the civis have a more distinctive look than they already have (look for the red nikes - they are still there right?) would be a bit ridiculous, as it would be way too easy to know. In real life you watch peoples hands. And if you think they have a weapon you watch some more. When you KNOW they have a weapon you take them out. If you play like that 99% of the time you'll be spot on. Also, you're not going to have RPG insurgents hopping up and down in the middle of the road. I'll give you a hint, those are the civis.

Observe peoples actions closely and you will easily be able to tell civis from armed insurgents. Use your optics to check for weapons and if you see them report it and take them down. Use teamwork and you should not have a problem, this problem really is trivial.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I heard plenty of people complaining that the green and white civilian was lame/unrealistic. Many wanted the civilian to look more like one of them. it add tension, it adds hesitation, these are a part of reality.

Never saw any threads on them. The problem was always about civis getting killed too often and not being used for what they are intended for.

Sure, not everyone dresses the same, but the fact remains that they will all look different, therefore, it will STILL remain difficult to distinguish civilian from insurgent. You said it clear as day right there. PR isnt about to find a way to have unique 64 players, thats just stupid. This is as good as it is gonna get.

No it doesn't. Civis in this game ARE supposed to be unique because they are intended as support for the insurgents and to act as a distraction. If you cannot tell the difference, then the insurgents lose that advantage because the civis are just as much canon fodder as the regular insurgents.

Cant see their weapon? Dont fire. If they are looking at you from a distance, take your chance, if you here bullet snaps/cracks, take 'em down and hope for the best, i dont know what else to tell ya. They have an AK for christs sake, if they are far enough to not see their gun[which RARELY happens to me in any noticeable way] then they are gonna have a hell of a time hitting you unless you are just standing there with your thumb up your ****.

LOL, "hope for the best." Like Clypp said, their weapons don't render at a distance and if they are looking at you through binocs, then you are even more screwed.


And the biggest problem with the argument for civilians the way they are now is that PR is not real life and there is no psychological effect. If you are going into a firefight and see a civilian in distinct green running around beforehand, you are more likely to be more careful since you know of the high respawn and consequences. If you cannot tell the difference in a split second, then there is no psychological effect and you are more likely to say "f*ck it" and just go into the fight only caring about YOU surviving instead of the civilians.


If civilians don't have that edge of being picked out from the population, then you get no psychological effect. And the only reason why in real life civilians are not supposed to be killed is because their will be major media effects and outcries against it and the country at war(US for example). This gives the country being attacked(Iraq or insurgents for example), the edge when it comes to propaganda and speaking out against the country attacking them.

If the bombing of Dresdin happened today, there would be major outcries and media scrutiny against the US like no other because of the amount of killed civilians. You can't replicate that ingame, so you cannot really compare the civilian casulties ingame to civilian casulties in real life.

So PR has essentially taken away the whole reason why civilians are civilians. Like I said, the best thing is to make them be VERY noticable so that at least some people are careful about what they shoot at. Now, NO ONE will be careful because they will just not take the time to notice or care, especially in CQB.

[OkitaMakoto]

Never saw any threads on them. The problem was always about civis getting killed too often and not being used for what they are intended for.



No it doesn't. Civis in this game ARE supposed to be unique because they are intended as support for the insurgents and to act as a distraction. If you cannot tell the difference, then the insurgents lose that advantage because the civis are just as much canon fodder as the regular insurgents.




LOL, "hope for the best." Like Clypp said, their weapons don't render at a distance and if they are looking at you through binocs, then you are even more screwed.


And the biggest problem with the argument for civilians the way they are now is that PR is not real life and there is no psychological effect. If you are going into a firefight and see a civilian in distinct green running around beforehand, you are more likely to be more careful since you know of the high respawn and consequences. If you cannot tell the difference in a split second, then there is no psychological effect and you are more likely to say "f*ck it" and just go into the fight only caring about YOU surviving instead of the civilians.


If civilians don't have that edge of being picked out from the population, then you get no psychological effect. And the only reason why in real life civilians are not supposed to be killed is because their will be major media effects and outcries against it and the country at war(US for example). This gives the country being attacked(Iraq or insurgents for example), the edge when it comes to propaganda and speaking out against the country attacking them.

If the bombing of Dresdin happened today, there would be major outcries and media scrutiny against the US like no other because of the amount of killed civilians. You can't replicate that ingame, so you cannot really compare the civilian casulties ingame to civilian casulties in real life.

So PR has essentially taken away the whole reason why civilians are civilians. Like I said, the best thing is to make them be VERY noticable so that at least some people are careful about what they shoot at. Now, NO ONE will be careful because they will just not take the time to notice or care, especially in CQB.

I really dont see the point in much of that. They are made to make you think twice about shooting. Its not rocket science. They arent that hard to tell apart. The only time its difficult is when they are far away, and ffs, just dont shoot, or look where their hands are. the gun might be gone, but the animation position isnt. Its really never been a concern for me in the slightest.

Them looking like the insurgents adds a higher level of tension. You dont just see a man in green run by and not worry about him, you see a possible insurgent run in front of you and you worry. You have to keep yourself from shooting him. Thats tension.

Them blending in doesnt remove the fact that there are consequences. If people are saying F- it, im not gonna worry, im just gonna blast all civilians and not care" your team will lose tickets, have long respawns, and you will probably lose, or have a tough time.

I dont see how them blending in makes them less of a threat/worry to the other forces. The fact that they are blending in makes it so much tougher and scarier for me. i love not knowing right off the bat. Now you dont just get guys chasing green guys down, because its a bit harder to be sure.

NOT being able to tell the dif i a split second adds a LOT of psychological aspect to the game. Knowing right off the bat has nothing psychological to it... how? You see a green guy and are like "duuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...ok, dont shoot" instead of "Oh sh*t RPG Insurgent!! ...wait..... phew... ok, lets move out". Not knowing which guys on the other team to shoot when you see several down the road is how its like... civies in the streets, etc. Its tough, thats why they need to blend in as "well" as they do.

I really dont see why them looking similar is a problem at all. They dont have anything in their hands, look at their hands...