Loadout fixes to make some classes intresting.

daveee · Post by **daveee** » 2008-01-24 23:37

The grappling hook is a great idea, could replace signal smoke perhaps.

Would give them a pretty good use for actually getting into enemy bases rather than having to waltz through the front entrance.

Antonious_Bloc · Post by **Antonious_Bloc** » 2008-01-25 04:35

Pain wrote:
Whats your kit then if you can choose:
Scoped rifle or non scoped with ammo?

It depends entirely on the situation. If I'm in dense forest or in close quarters, a scope is only going to make it really hard to find/hit my enemy. In those cases I go with rifleman ammo. Also, if one of my mates has an anti-tank kit, one of my other squaddies will have a rifleman ammo.

If you choose non scoped for ammo why you dont use automatic rifleman (most same loadout: nades, smoke, ammo, knife, & gun + 1 big advantage: supressing fire for your team)?

Have you ever used the auto rifleman with iron sights? It's really slow to turn with the sights up, rendering it useless in close quarters where mobility is the name of the game. You also really need to be laying down in order to use the gun effectively, and it really is meant for suppressing, so after your first shot or two it isn't accurate at all.

Plus support gunners have half the nades as rifleman ammo.
Plus, any infantry can give suppressive fire. You just need to fire.
Plus there are squad limits and you might not be able to get a support kit anyway.

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-01-25 05:12

Can we at least give the rifleman ammo kit an aimpoint?

markonymous · Post by **markonymous** » 2008-01-25 05:30

Pain wrote:Show me some of your reasons, and try to answer followed questions!

Whats your kit then if you can choose:

Scoped rifle or non scoped with ammo?

If you choose non scoped for ammo why you dont use automatic rifleman (most same loadout: nades, smoke, ammo, knife, & gun + 1 big advantage: supressing fire for your team)?

The scoped rifleman is a middle and long range assault class.
So my opinion make the non scoped a specialist for short and middle combat range. With a limited ammo semi shotgun as sidearm (maybe without smoke and a few flashs).

In real life each squad got 1 man with a shotgun as sidearm in most cases (urban area). And a military class with just a shotgun is unrealistic today in my opinion.

my thoughts:

Spec Ops

1 Knife
2 Pistol
3 Assault rifle
4 Grenades or smoke nades
5 Slams --> ability to destroy assets or other important things
6 Soflam --> ability to designate/spot targets for other troops
7 Flashs
8 Field dressing
9 grappling hook --> simulate a special ability of such units to engage the enemy from non conventional insertion points (clear buildings from roof to bottom/get over walls to engage from behind/take routes away from enemy key positions to get in their back with your squad undetected...)

i think the specops should get a healing bag, since all spec ops are trained in first aid and so on. a sloq healing one

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-25 11:22

Antonious_Bloc wrote:It depends entirely on the situation. If I'm in dense forest or in close quarters, a scope is only going to make it really hard to find/hit my enemy. In those cases I go with rifleman ammo. Also, if one of my mates has an anti-tank kit, one of my other squaddies will have a rifleman ammo.

Thats ok you select between range...

Scoped

assault specialist for long+mid range

Non Scoped

assault specialist mid range BUT hes weaker at mid range as the scoped guy. But he dont get an advantage in close combat against medics or grenadiers except the nades. So there is no specialist for the close combat, and i think that should be the non scoped assault class and not a support class.

Antonious_Bloc wrote:Have you ever used the auto rifleman with iron sights? It's really slow to turn with the sights up, rendering it useless in close quarters where mobility is the name of the game. You also really need to be laying down in order to use the gun effectively, and it really is meant for suppressing, so after your first shot or two it isn't accurate at all.

I played it but you not i think...

You will have absolutley no chance with a non scoped rifleman against a saw in close combat. (he dont need to aim at very close range and the gun do not slow to much to aim fast enough if you need...)

2nd point youn can give support/supressing fire in all 3 stances without any diffrences.

Antonious_Bloc wrote: Plus support gunners have half the nades as rifleman ammo.

To clear a room you need 1 nade, and you got a second to do your job, after that you got an ammo bag to reload after the firefight. You cant waste 4 nades for 1 job, but you got enough for 90% of all situations.

Antonious_Bloc wrote:
Plus, any infantry can give suppressive fire. You just need to fire.

HAHAHA why the hell the guys in the armie dont carry assault rifles instead of those fucking heavy saw´s?

You was joking, wasnt you? You can give supressing fire by assault rifles but for a effectiv supression of an enemy you need a lot of firepower so there a more than 2-3 guys with assault guns firing to supress him.
But with a saw you can supress a enemy on your own to let your squad move safer to flank those guys or get a good aim on it. Think if youre just 3-4 ppl you always need 1 more to cover your six till supressing the enemy...

Antonious_Bloc wrote:
Plus there are squad limits and you might not be able to get a support kit anyway.

Thats true but in most cases you get one and in the other cases you need to take non scoped rifleman for ammo. But the non scoped rifleman need a specilisation in my eyes and that should be the close quarter combat. With a low ammo semi shotgun as sidearm.
So he will get his special ability and he will played more, not just if all kits gone.

Other questions:

Shotguns are in use in a real life armie/squad.

1. Tell me how/for what they use it!

- close combat
- open doors

2. Tell me the gun loadout of the guy which carry it in real life!

- shotgun + primary assault rifle, not just a shotgun or a shotgun with 2 types of ammo

3. Tell me his role in a squad...

- act as pointman in house fighting or dense jungle area
- ultimative door opener
- in open field hes a normal rifleman (with just a shotgun hes just cannonfodder)

icehollow · Post by **icehollow** » 2008-01-25 14:00

Pain wrote:I think a few of the classes needs to be tweaked a bit to make them more usefull/intresting.
First of all, the most classes are perfect in my eyes. But there are a few with some disatvantages.

Non scoped rifleman

He needs to get powered up at close range so i think he should get a shotgun as secondary gun for close quarter fights. (its not unrealistic, in rl most of time 1 man in a squad carry a shotgun to go on point in house fighting)

.

No it is unrealistic, most of the time squads do not carry shotguns. Marines might on occasion for breaching doors, but I'm willing to bet that shotguns aren't carried commonly and thus seeing as there are no doors to breach in PR, no point in adding it.

Regardless, with BF2's hitreg, I'd feel safer with the M16 at close range than a pump action shotgun. =\

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2008-01-25 14:14

Pain wrote: HAHAHA why the hell the guys in the armie dont carry assault rifles instead of those fucking heavy saw´s?

You was joking, wasnt you? You can give supressing fire by assault rifles but for a effectiv supression of an enemy you need a lot of firepower so there a more than 2-3 guys with assault guns firing to supress him.
But with a saw you can supress a enemy on your own to let your squad move safer to flank those guys or get a good aim on it. Think if youre just 3-4 ppl you always need 1 more to cover your six till supressing the enemy...

I think he was talking about in game.
And in that case it's pretty easy to suppress your enemy with your assault rifle. Just use single shot and everytime he tries to move/shoot at you just start shooting rapidly. Either he goes back to cover or he dies.

icehollow · Post by **icehollow** » 2008-01-25 14:28

Jonny wrote:
Two (2) shotguns are listed in a table titled 'Modern (post Korean War) UK infantry weapons', which can be found in this article.

Neither of those two shotguns are commonly issued I'd bet, so it remains unrealistic to expect the Ammo rifleman to carry a shotgun and a rifle.

Same thing over here, remington 870 in service, but only issued to naval boarding teams.

Waaah_Wah · Post by **Waaah_Wah** » 2008-01-25 15:53

why do SpecOps have the signal smoke..? A grapple would be better IMO

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-25 17:03

You played COD4 SP Part? Ok its a arcade game but with an realistic setting.

The marines ground units you play in those middle east setting....

A few of them got a shotgun as sidearm to break doors and go on point in close quarter combat. The shotgun as 2nd is a usual loadout.
If assault squads operate in urban area there will be a shotgun on the back of min. 1 guy in the squad... Trust me! Maybe not for some patroling or escort/defend units. But if they need to go in, they will have some...

At the moment there are no shotguns in the game except eng class with 2 types of ammo and shotgun as main on some maps... I think a class with just a shotgun is unbalanced in this game, because its just a running target at mid+ range.

And the n/s rifleman is a bit unintresting at the moment... To make him to a specialized class for close combat which have a conterpart the scoped rifleman.

He just need a semi shotgun 15-20 shells (buckshot) to make him stronger in cqc. On mid+ range hes not stronger then a medic or engineer.

Then we got shotguns back to game without make an unintresting shotgun only class again, or get the game becomming unrealistic/unbalanced...

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-01-25 17:42

The shotgun is already difficult to use in its current form, so why not give it to the ammo rifleman as a sidearm? It wouldn't significantly alter the balance of the game any more than a shotgun-equipped engineer, and it would be more believable than some guy fighting G3's with a pump-action.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-25 17:50

mammikoura wrote:I think he was talking about in game.
And in that case it's pretty easy to suppress your enemy with your assault rifle. Just use single shot and everytime he tries to move/shoot at you just start shooting rapidly. Either he goes back to cover or he dies.

Thats no supression fire...

If he starts running you will hit a sh it.... And if he starts running after some time shooting from you, you run out of ammo and need to reload... bye bye enemy!!

With a saw you can supress him for a while without reloading and if he starts running hes dead and not scared!!!!

And the new 0.7 supressing fire scares more then before, and you cant supress an enemy with just 1 assault rifle for longer than a few seconds.

In real life there is one more reason why you cant do that:

The m4 bolt chamber is closing after each round firing a new one loads when it goes back and close again ...
If you shoot to often you will cook off your gun and maybe you cook off a bullet and it makes boom... Then you can just trow your m4.

The saw´s bolt chamber is always offten and the saw wont get too hot in full auto fire...

But thats not important in a game

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2008-01-25 19:11

Pain wrote:Thats no supression fire...

If he starts running you will hit a sh it.... And if he starts running after some time shooting from you, you run out of ammo and need to reload... bye bye enemy!!

it might not be called supression fire but it keeps the enemies head down and that's good enough for me. It doesn't matter if I shoot 2 or 200 rounds, as long as the enemy keeps his head down the effect is the same.

Running out of ammo can happen. But after 20 rounds you can say for example "reloading in 10 secs" so your squad knows that after 10 seconds the enemy might be shooting at them.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-25 19:21

mammikoura wrote:it might not be called supression fire but it keeps the enemies head down and that's good enough for me. It doesn't matter if I shoot 2 or 200 rounds, as long as the enemy keeps his head down the effect is the same.

Running out of ammo can happen. But after 20 rounds you can say for example "reloading in 10 secs" so your squad knows that after 10 seconds the enemy might be shooting at them.

Ok...

You are my enemy, youre behind a cover in front of my squad.

1)) I supress you with 2-3 rounds of my m4 behind your cover...

What you do now?

a: youre scared and you hold your head down and wait for my squad getting closer (covered by me with my m4) to nade the sh it out of you?

b: you take the risk against ca 25 single bullets and sprint out of cover to the next one?

2)) Same situation, i got a saw... You know i was firing with a saw on you and i logged you to cover squad moving

What you do now?

a: youre scared and you hold your head down and wait for my squad getting closer (covered by me with my saw) to nade the sh it out of you?

b: you take the risk against ca 180 (think ca 90 ig)sprayed bullets and sprint out of cover to the next one?

1a = dead
1b = you may survive
2a = dead
2b = dead

As long as your squad need just to move there you can use m4 to supress him while get your squad out of the area, then they need cover you by closing up, but if you want to take him out there should be a saw, a humvee m2, apc or a tank which gives you support while engaging/moving into hostile area

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-01-25 19:58

An intelligent soldier, when pinned down, would make a smoke screen and move to either a safer position or the rest of his squad. Sure, you might fire into the smoke and kill him anyway, but this makes it much harder to be killed by suppressing fire, especially if the enemy doesn't have a machine gun.

Back on topic, I'd like to see more carbines in the kit loadouts. Nearly every kit has an assault rifle with or without a scope - it's boring, and not entirely accurate on CQB/urban maps.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-25 20:06

gclark03 wrote:.......Sure, you might fire into the smoke and kill him anyway, but this makes it much harder to be killed by suppressing fire, especially if the enemy doesn't have a machine gun.

Back on topic.....

That was the point of all

Back to topic