Dont Civis look too much like insurgents?

[00SoldierofFortune00]

OkitaMakoto;591921']I really dont see the point in much of that. They are made to make you think twice about shooting. Its not rocket science. They arent that hard to tell apart. The only time its difficult is when they are far away, and ffs, just dont shoot, or look where their hands are. the gun might be gone, but the animation position isnt. Its really never been a concern for me in the slightest.

You agree with me then that they are there to make you think twice about shooting. If they are, then they should have their own unique look to tell them apart so that people do not kill them at long distances or get them confused. You honestly think people are going to take their time to look and see if they are holding a weapon when you turn the corner in CQB? Only the hardcore of hardcore players will not kill civilians in this game now and I know that this game is more and more catering to the hardcore players, but this is kind of rediculas. Unless people check these forums 24/7 or read the wiki, they will not know that civilians are now dressed the same. Even I didn't know and I read it.


And the animation doesn't work when they have binocs out or an insurgent has them out too and is looking at you, spotting you.

Them looking like the insurgents adds a higher level of tension. You dont just see a man in green run by and not worry about him, you see a possible insurgent run in front of you and you worry. You have to keep yourself from shooting him. Thats tension.

No it isn't. Like I said, unless you are a hardcore player, you will not worry about killing a civilian if he is dressed the same and with a bunch of possible insurgents. I already know that I have a low risk of surviving if I go into CQB, so why should I take precautions when I already know I am dead? Might as well try to last the longest you can.

Them blending in doesnt remove the fact that there are consequences. If people are saying F- it, im not gonna worry, im just gonna blast all civilians and not care" your team will lose tickets, have long respawns, and you will probably lose, or have a tough time.

You think people are really thinking, "WOW, I killed an insurgent, my team lost a ticket or 2 and I will have a long respawn"?

No, they are trying to survive the longest they can in this game, and since the respawn times are already long, that extra minute isn't really even that much anymore. Most people are just worried about killing enemies and destroying caches.

I dont see how them blending in makes them less of a threat/worry to the other forces. The fact that they are blending in makes it so much tougher and scarier for me. i love not knowing right off the bat. Now you dont just get guys chasing green guys down, because its a bit harder to be sure.

You don't see many "civilians" being chased down anymore either. What's the point when they look so much alike? Most people believe that if they kill all the enemies around them, they will live a little longer. If this wasn't true, then people wouldn't shoot at every little thing they see. People are triggerhappy and nothing is going to change that unless it is obviously noticable and the green jumpsuits were noticable.

NOT being able to tell the dif i a split second adds a LOT of psychological aspect to the game. Knowing right off the bat has nothing psychological to it... how? You see a green guy and are like "duuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...ok, dont shoot" instead of "Oh sh*t RPG Insurgent!! ...wait..... phew... ok, lets move out". Not knowing which guys on the other team to shoot when you see several down the road is how its like... civies in the streets, etc. Its tough, thats why they need to blend in as "well" as they do.

This is where you are completely wrong. Psychological effects come before, not after. If you know the insurgent is hiding in their because you saw his green jumpsuit, you are MUCH more likely to be careful and not kill him. If you see a bunch of guys in white running around and can't tell the difference in time, you are much more likely to charge in there and be triggerhappy.

And like another poster said, these "civilians" do not even act as real civilians since they are aiding the insurgents. Now, civilians do aid insurgents in real life, but do they run in front of bullets or tanks? No. So these guys ingame are more of "decoys" or "plants" which main purposes are to take attention away from the real insurgents ingame and harrass the enemy. If you cannot easily tell the difference, then what is the point of a civilian because he is basically just as good as dead in big groups. If you see a group of guys in white coming around a corner, you will not take the time to look at all of their hands or what they are carrying. So you are much more likely to fire. If you see half of them are in green, an easily noticable color, than you are much more likely to back off and use another tactic to get them.

I really dont see why them looking similar is a problem at all. They dont have anything in their hands, look at their hands...

Easier said than done, especially when most people turn a corner and are already firing.

[OkitaMakoto]

You agree with me then that they are there to make you think twice about shooting. If they are, then they should have their own unique look to tell them apart so that people do not kill them at long distances or get them confused. You honestly think people are going to take their time to look and see if they are holding a weapon when you turn the corner in CQB? Only the hardcore of hardcore players will not kill civilians in this game now and I know that this game is more and more catering to the hardcore players, but this is kind of rediculas. Unless people check these forums 24/7 or read the wiki, they will not know that civilians are now dressed the same. Even I didn't know and I read it.


And the animation doesn't work when they have binocs out or an insurgent has them out too and is looking at you, spotting you.



No it isn't. Like I said, unless you are a hardcore player, you will not worry about killing a civilian if he is dressed the same and with a bunch of possible insurgents. I already know that I have a low risk of surviving if I go into CQB, so why should I take precautions when I already know I am dead? Might as well try to last the longest you can.



You think people are really thinking, "WOW, I killed an insurgent, my team lost a ticket or 2 and I will have a long respawn"?

No, they are trying to survive the longest they can in this game, and since the respawn times are already long, that extra minute isn't really even that much anymore. Most people are just worried about killing enemies and destroying caches.



You don't see many "civilians" being chased down anymore either. What's the point when they look so much alike? Most people believe that if they kill all the enemies around them, they will live a little longer. If this wasn't true, then people wouldn't shoot at every little thing they see. People are triggerhappy and nothing is going to change that unless it is obviously noticable and the green jumpsuits were noticable.





This is where you are completely wrong. Psychological effects come before, not after. If you know the insurgent is hiding in their because you saw his green jumpsuit, you are MUCH more likely to be careful and not kill him. If you see a bunch of guys in white running around and can't tell the difference in time, you are much more likely to charge in there and be triggerhappy.

And like another poster said, these "civilians" do not even act as real civilians since they are aiding the insurgents. Now, civilians do aid insurgents in real life, but do they run in front of bullets or tanks? No. So these guys ingame are more of "decoys" or "plants" which main purposes are to take attention away from the real insurgents ingame and harrass the enemy. If you cannot easily tell the difference, then what is the point of a civilian because he is basically just as good as dead in big groups. If you see a group of guys in white coming around a corner, you will not take the time to look at all of their hands or what they are carrying. So you are much more likely to fire. If you see half of them are in green, an easily noticable color, than you are much more likely to back off and use another tactic to get them.



Easier said than done, especially when most people turn a corner and are already firing.

You really just twisted everything I said to fit your own argument. Something i really cant stand.

I do NOT agree with you. If the civies are green, you know right away to not shoot them and therefore you can simply ignore them. This ISNT how its supposed to be. I think you have the wrong image of civilians in PR. They arent just to help their team defensively, they are sympathizers wih the INS that the British cannot shoot. They wouldnt run around IRL with bright red suits saying "Dont shoot" and I dont want that in PR. Its not even "want", its what I think PR stands for.

So be it if only the hardcore gamers appreciate this. If the others dont want to take 2 seconds to check their surroundings and watch their fire, I have no sympathy for them. its not elitist, its not being an *******, its simply stating the facts. You DONT always know if a civilian is packing a gun or not. Its not black and white. or in this case, Green Jump Suit and Terrorist.

How often is an insurgent spotting you with binocs and a civy spotting you mixed up? Thats a simple rare error I dont think is the problem. Every time I have played Basrah I have not had this problem. Sure, a civy might die now and then, but thats war. But, I think it is by NO means, a stretch to require[or a least ask] players to check their fire. its nowhere near as tough as RL, so I dont see any room for argueing.

Since you feel like theres no punishment for killing a civy, maybe they should look like they do now with MORE repercussions. Im all for it, honestly. Make the spray and pray shooters pay for it. If we lose, so what, at least they will learn sooner or later, one would hope. or leave.

Im GLAD civies arent being chased down anymore. You think a soldier in Iraq would sprint down the road after a civilian aiding the enemy during a firefight? Hell no. That ludicrous. Its a good thing they arent being chased down. They should only be stabbed when on a rare occurrence they are on their own, or their squad/support was wiped out.

Yes, people are trigger happy. I dont disagree. They will pay the consequences. I dont want green clad clowns running around telling me not to shoot them. I want to have to watch my fire, observe, and take cover as I assess. I dont see why anyone would want to just see a green blob and know not to shoot. its not that easy.

Yes, psychological effects come before, I never claimed they didnt. You just took it how you wanted. I want the PRIOR psychological effect of seeing a 'enemy' down the road look at me, me have to take cover and make sure he isnt an insurgent. There is NO effect/contemplation when you see a green blob other than the initial split second surprise of seeing something move[which could just as easily be your own teammate] Thats not psychological, thats merely Fight or Flight instant responses.

Maybe YOU would run in trigger happy if you didnt know of a civilian, but maybe thats a flaw in your gaming. no offense, but this is a big change. I dont deny it. Its not easy to take the time to check your fire. The reality of it is this: Civilians dont just up and wear green jumpsuits so that the Allied forces know who to shoot. They wear hat they wear everyday, and so do the insurgents. Thats how it is. Sure maybe some webbing and of course a rifle, but there you go.

Its NOT difficult to tell the difference. one has a weapon ffs. Im sorry if it is terribly difficult to tell what is a rock and what is a weapon. I agree that the civilians need more of a reason to stay alive. They should be punished for dying just as much as the British are. The British should not want to kill them just as much as the civilian doesnt want to run out and get shot. I totally agree here. but making them stand out is NOT the way PR should go about it. There needs to be increased spawn times and possibly something else to make the civilians want to behave like a civlian would. Aiding the insurgents, but NOT wanting to outright put their life on the line.

Besides, I know plenty of people who when playing civilian now dont try to get killed. Of course, when they DO get killed they laugh and smile at the British, but still, they arent just running around trying to get shot or naded.

Maybe youre playing on the wrong servers, i dont know.

really, I dont know what to tell you. Everything you pulled out of my argument was twisted to fit your side and I am now merely trying to clear things up.

[Wolfe]

Civi's looking like insurgents is the only thing that makes Basra tollerable to play.

The map would be even better if the city was 4x larger with all weapon caches within the city... then the Brit armor would be forced inside the city from the start instead of slaughtering insurgents from the outer edges.

[TravisRomano]

I don't care anymore i don't use a limited kit anymore there fr ill kill 6000000 civis in a row then die then go take a **** and come back and boom spawn in and hear omfg you noob killing civis dont want to die dont get a class that cant fight back i mean the max you can get is a 4m spawn time and you most likly have a 60/11 K/D b/c you shot everyone and did not allow a stupid civi worry you i would suggest take the tank out and delete the civi kit lol. i dont care flame if if you wish.

[Rudd]

I don't care anymore i don't use a limited kit anymore there fr ill kill 6000000 civis in a row then die then go take a **** and come back and boom spawn in and hear omfg you noob killing civis dont want to die dont get a class that cant fight back i mean the max you can get is a 4m spawn time and you most likly have a 60/11 K/D b/c you shot everyone and did not allow a stupid civi worry you i would suggest take the tank out and delete the civi kit lol. i dont care flame if if you wish.

TICKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Civi's looking like insurgents is the only thing that makes Basra tollerable to play.

The map would be even better if the city was 4x larger with all weapon caches within the city... then the Brit armor would be forced inside the city from the start instead of slaughtering insurgents from the outer edges.

I like!

[Mosquill]

Loosing 3 inteligence points is the only penalty your team will suffer if you kill a civie. Not much is it? So who cares if they look like insurgents? You can kill them if you really want to.

[Outlawz7]

Loosing 3 inteligence points is the only penalty your team will suffer if you kill a civie. Not much is it? So who cares if they look like insurgents? You can kill them if you really want to.

And there's another issue - dead civilians or alive have little impact on the outcome of the round.

-3 intel just from a dead civi means, that a C2 will kill another 3 insurgents and we're back in business.

[Brummy]

TICKETS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I like!

The Brits don't get less tickets. The Insurgents gain some, which is useless because they have 9000 or something anyway..

[00SoldierofFortune00]

You really just twisted everything I said to fit your own argument. Something i really cant stand.

Actually no, read the first part of my paragraph.

You agree with me then that they are there to make you think twice about shooting.

You said that they are to make you think twice, so you basically agree with me on that, but if they are to make you think twice, then they should be noticable so you can pick that fact up early.

I do NOT agree with you. If the civies are green, you know right away to not shoot them and therefore you can simply ignore them. This ISNT how its supposed to be. I think you have the wrong image of civilians in PR. They arent just to help their team defensively, they are sympathizers wih the INS that the British cannot shoot. They wouldnt run around IRL with bright red suits saying "Dont shoot" and I dont want that in PR. Its not even "want", its what I think PR stands for.

You also have the wrong image of civilians. They do not run around with insurgents in real life or run in front of vehicles. Most are in large groups and I the civilian in PR as it is right now, has rocks. That means he is suppose to be a "rioter" and harrassing the UK forces as I said.

So be it if only the hardcore gamers appreciate this. If the others dont want to take 2 seconds to check their surroundings and watch their fire, I have no sympathy for them. its not elitist, its not being an *******, its simply stating the facts. You DONT always know if a civilian is packing a gun or not. Its not black and white. or in this case, Green Jump Suit and Terrorist.

The main problem with that argument is that you say "You Don't always know if a civilian is packing a gun or not", but according to you and others, it is also easy to tell the difference if you stop and look, and the other problem is that civilians cannot suddenly whip out a weapon, so they can never be that idea you are getting.

It isn't that easy. As others have stated, sometimes things do not render, you cannot see what they have in their arms when you are running towards an area, and as we all know, civilians like to throw themselves at enemy nades, so they need to be easily spotted before you move in.

How often is an insurgent spotting you with binocs and a civy spotting you mixed up? Thats a simple rare error I dont think is the problem. Every time I have played Basrah I have not had this problem. Sure, a civy might die now and then, but thats war. But, I think it is by NO means, a stretch to require[or a least ask] players to check their fire. its nowhere near as tough as RL, so I dont see any room for argueing.

If you are a long way away and you are moving to the city, they can have their binocs up. I saw a guy on a roof to see if he was a civilian or not because his weapon didn't render and it was an insurgent and in that time, I could of been shot.

And I agree that players should check their fire, but if things look so much the same, you honestly think that is going to happen except with the hardcore players? This is still Battlefield and people are still trigger happy and if people were killing civilians before, you can be rest assured that a lot more will be killed now, making them a pretty useless class.

Since you feel like theres no punishment for killing a civy, maybe they should look like they do now with MORE repercussions. Im all for it, honestly. Make the spray and pray shooters pay for it. If we lose, so what, at least they will learn sooner or later, one would hope. or leave.

Read what I said above. And that "leave" mentality with PR is becoming to prevalent.

Im GLAD civies arent being chased down anymore. You think a soldier in Iraq would sprint down the road after a civilian aiding the enemy during a firefight? Hell no. That ludicrous. Its a good thing they arent being chased down. They should only be stabbed when on a rare occurrence they are on their own, or their squad/support was wiped out

You think a civilian in Iraq would run out into the open, in front of vehicles, onto grenades, or in the company of insurgents during a firefight, which would make them an insurgent?

No, in Iraq they patrol areas and streets and it is much different when you are going through an area are opposed to a whole city. When they are knifed, it can also be used to simulate that the UK went into their homes and capturing them. But I can tell you now, that if the PR civilian was in real life and rolling with a group of insurgents, he would be treated as one in combat and probably killed.

Yes, people are trigger happy. I dont disagree. They will pay the consequences. I dont want green clad clowns running around telling me not to shoot them. I want to have to watch my fire, observe, and take cover as I assess. I dont see why anyone would want to just see a green blob and know not to shoot. its not that easy.

The problem is, the consequences are they are going to die anyway. But would you rather stay alive longer if you do not know that is an insurgent or civilian around the corner and shoot anyway, or die in which case you are going to have a 35 sec respawn anyway? The consequences come after, so they are not really consequences.

Yes, psychological effects come before, I never claimed they didnt. You just took it how you wanted. I want the PRIOR psychological effect of seeing a 'enemy' down the road look at me, me have to take cover and make sure he isnt an insurgent. There is NO effect/contemplation when you see a green blob other than the initial split second surprise of seeing something move[which could just as easily be your own teammate] Thats not psychological, thats merely Fight or Flight instant responses.

No, there is plenty of psychology effects if you identify an insurgent before you move in and I have had much more teamwork that way then the current system.

Ex.

-My squad sees an insurgents and civilians.
-Now we know that we cannot grenade because their are friendlies in the village or town, like in real life.
-we go into the town or village and are much more careful then if we only saw people who looked like the enemy running around.

Ex. 2
An APC sees people running around like crazy and fires randomly. If he sees a guy in green running around, at least he knows that they are friendlies and to lessen up on the fire.

Maybe YOU would run in trigger happy if you didnt know of a civilian, but maybe thats a flaw in your gaming. no offense, but this is a big change. I dont deny it. Its not easy to take the time to check your fire. The reality of it is this: Civilians dont just up and wear green jumpsuits so that the Allied forces know who to shoot. They wear hat they wear everyday, and so do the insurgents. Thats how it is. Sure maybe some webbing and of course a rifle, but there you go.

I am not having a problem with the change although I do not like it because I have been playing this game since 0.2 and have been through all the changes. I do not like the change because it isn't realistic in terms of how civilians are suppose to be played in this game, it is making people play less as insurgents, and it is making them easier targets for anyone that is not "hardcore."

And I agree with you that civilians don't ALL wear green jumpsuits, though a lot do wear normal clothing, but civilians also do not follow insurgents into battle, run in front of vehicles or enemy fire, and since they cannot pull out weapons from their clothes, it makes your points kind of moot about the whole "check who it is" aspect.

O, and trust me, my style of gaming is fine. Been playing since 0.2, 4 Tournaments, and been winning impossible battles since forever.

Its NOT difficult to tell the difference. one has a weapon ffs. Im sorry if it is terribly difficult to tell what is a rock and what is a weapon. I agree that the civilians need more of a reason to stay alive. They should be punished for dying just as much as the British are. The British should not want to kill them just as much as the civilian doesnt want to run out and get shot. I totally agree here. but making them stand out is NOT the way PR should go about it. There needs to be increased spawn times and possibly something else to make the civilians want to behave like a civlian would. Aiding the insurgents, but NOT wanting to outright put their life on the line.

I am sorry that you don't get the simple fact that weapons do not render at a range and sometimes, they look very familiar and it is hard to tell on the run. Also, in CQB, that split second could mean the difference between suriving or getting shot.

And like I said, the civilians ingame are nothing like civilians in real life and there is no way to replicate that with 32 players a side and such a massive city. Al Basrah is also essentially the beginning of a battle, not an occupation like Iraq. If it was, the UK forces would control the whole city and have forces all over the place and patrolling, which is realistic, not coming from their base to spread out everywhere.

Besides, I know plenty of people who when playing civilian now dont try to get killed. Of course, when they DO get killed they laugh and smile at the British, but still, they arent just running around trying to get shot or naded.

Maybe youre playing on the wrong servers, i dont know.

Well, there are plenty of people who do that tactic and they can laugh and smile all they want, but if the player stays alive for a long time, it kind of puts a damper on their "plan."

And I have been playing on all the servers that have been populated. It shouldn't take 1 server for someone to play this game correctly.

really, I dont know what to tell you. Everything you pulled out of my argument was twisted to fit your side and I am now merely trying to clear things up.

Nothing was twisted, but what you said can be interpreted in a completely different way from a player that isn't "hardcore" which are the players I have on my squad all the time.

[OkitaMakoto]

I dont have the time to try and tell one person what the role of the civilian is. What it boils down to is that you cannot say that them standing out like sore thumbs makes you think twice. You dont have to think when they stand out like that. You merely have to tell one ridiculous color/outfit[green and white] from a less ridiculous one.

At this point, I dont even care what you want to claim as imho, it is totally off from my own thoughts on what the civilian role is trying to achieve.

I agree the civlians arent functioning quite as they should, but I would be very upset if they were made green again just so some trigger happy gamer doesnt have to use caution and watch his fire.

Im not going to follow up each one of your statements because I honestly dont have time, nor do I care enough to try and sway your opinion. The fact is, I havent heard much complaining at all about the looks of civilians, only their function, which I agree could use some tweaking.

The consequences come after, so they are not really consequences.

You dont know how much this made me smile

Consequence
1. That which follows something on which it depends; that which is produced by a cause; a result.

[Officer_Dufus]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/bbugaski/Miscellaneous/screen007.jpg

That's a civilian in the background.

They are certainly wearing the same clothing...

Dunno what ya'll are talking about when you say civilians wear green?

[OkitaMakoto]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/bbugaski/Miscellaneous/screen007.jpg

That's a civilian in the background.

They are certainly wearing the same clothing...

Dunno what ya'll are talking about when you say civilians wear green?

They used to wear green shirts[pants?] in .6. A few people want them changed back to make it easier to tell them apart.

[Officer_Dufus]

I vote to keep it the same (as it is now).

Alot of the times you cannot tell civilians apart from insurgents until it's too late (in real life).

Think of Iraq today. Many of those detonating themselves or their vehicles look like an ordinary civilian until the bright flash and loud noise.

[DeePsix]

Keep it hard to tell who is a civilian and who isn't. It really wasn't all that difficult with the lime green jumpsuits they wore before, but now I find myself trying to get conformation from the rest of my squad on the locations of shooters and look for a weapon rather than clothing color.

[Rudd]

Keep it hard to tell who is a civilian and who isn't. It really wasn't all that difficult with the lime green jumpsuits they wore before, but now I find myself trying to get conformation from the rest of my squad on the locations of shooters and look for a weapon rather than clothing color.

x2

[zangoo]

you might be able to increase the distance that the diffrent kits draw at.

here is part of the us heavy soldier

GeometryTemplate.setSubGeometryLodDistance 1 0 10
GeometryTemplate.setSubGeometryLodDistance 1 1 20
ObjectTemplate.active us_heavywhite_soldier
ObjectTemplate.networkableInfo BasicInfo
ObjectTemplate.hasMobilePhysics 1
rem ObjectTemplate.hasMobilePhysics 0
ObjectTemplate.collisionGroups 16
ObjectTemplate.CullRadiusScale 12.5
ObjectTemplate.castsDynamicShadow 1
ObjectTemplate.aiTemplate Soldier

it has a cullradius, so if you increase that it should change the distance that it will draw at, i would change it to something like 30 and then it should draw at the max draw distance of the level.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

OkitaMakoto;593222']I dont have the time to try and tell one person what the role of the civilian is. What it boils down to is that you cannot say that them standing out like sore thumbs makes you think twice. You dont have to think when they stand out like that. You merely have to tell one ridiculous color/outfit[green and white] from a less ridiculous one.

It obviously made people think twice before because we had people moving in together and knifing civilians. How would it not make them thing twice if they identify them beforehand?

You dont know how much this made me smile

Consequence
1. That which follows something on which it depends; that which is produced by a cause; a result.

That is not really a consequence though when someone in an apc last half the game and never gets killed. And when he does, 90 seconds is hardly a long wait. Same with players who last a long time.

What I mean by consequences is that they should be identified beforehand so that it makes the players aware that they shoud be more careful. Having something stick out is more practical if you don't want people to be triggerhappy.

[OkitaMakoto]

It obviously made people think twice before because we had people moving in together and knifing civilians. How would it not make them thing twice if they identify them beforehand?

Knifing civilians in .6 was the PR equivalent of a clown car and subsequent clown chase accompanied by the Benny Hill Theme as you saw a line of Brits, all with their knives out, running after a man in green.

Now, in .7, knifing civilians is a somewhat rarer event and I am glad for that.

Its not a matter of identifying them before hand, that happens in both .6 and .7, however, in .7 it relies more on a keen eye and doing some recon/observation. .6 you merely had to see a green blob. I dont deny it was easier in .6, and I dont know what else to say... I know I cant explain it so you see why .7 is a vast improvement over .6 in terms of civilians. Once there's a better penalty involved things will get even better.

But, now Im just repeating myself... like I have been

[KP]

I think it's great the way it is now.

[TF6049]

They should blend in. But, insurgents will have to have no weapons so Allied Forces can "interrogate" them. If they pull out a gun, they can be killed without penalty.