SOF kit experiment: actually try using it properly. Verdict? I'd rather be a rifleman

Death_dx · Post by **Death_dx** » 2008-01-31 08:42

Agree on pretty much everything, although specops do have armour, and the grenades should really be changed on other kits instead of adding them to specops. Also seems like the M4 is louder than the m16, although it has the best sound effect of all the guns. Pistol is a bit useless considering it has such low damage couldn't find the .con but I'm guessing it's around ~20, it'd be nice to have a silencer on it so it'd actually have a purpose.

Limiting combat engineer is a good idea, but we also need the engy and SF to be more specialized to their roles, right now it's mostly just "Well all SFs are in use just go combat engineer."

charliegrs · Post by **charliegrs** » 2008-01-31 08:49

i can think of 2 useful things about the spec op

1: he has a SOFLAM. so you are the only person besides a squad leader that can call in JDAM strikes. not to mention the much further view distance compared to binos. in real life spec ops do alot of recon work, it isnt just all run and gun rambo lone man against an army type stuff.

2: i think the m4 is awesome in close quarters situations on full auto. yeah, i may have to sacrifice some effectiveness in long range combat, but when your cappin a village and theres buildings to clear, i would take the spec ops kit over anything else.

but generally i agree with you about the kit, but i do think there are some useful purposes for it, just like every kit.

Valtasar · Post by **Valtasar** » 2008-01-31 08:50

I don't have that much problem with SOF kit. Mostly b/c I dont use it much

.

But when I do, as far as I understand SOF is not contact class. You only make contact if you spoted and geting shot at (and I dont have any special problem with M-4 its OK for me). It's main task is to spot targets for sniper, bomb run etc, or take out commander asets.
What it can use is more SLAM's or make it more powerful against com asets.

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2008-01-31 09:04

I like it how you put "actually try using it properly" in the topic, yet I can't find any of these words from your text.

spot
recon
soflam

I mean that is what the kit is for. (in my opinion) It's not so that you can run alone in the jungle shooting guys with your m4. And the m4 is a decent weapon. Sure it's not great for long ranges but that's what the other kits are for.

MoonDawg · Post by **MoonDawg** » 2008-01-31 11:02

I've had a blast with specops kit.

Essentially, you should be in the pilot squad, and act as a forward observer.
It's not a kit I play often, and the times I've been on an asset mission are few, but when I do, It's sneaky time.
I use it as a "relief kit," mostly playing medic or SL, I take a round off, and roleplay a little,
It's kind of like a singleplayer game, with a raging battle around me, and a challenging AI. (Challanging as in random.)
I can't really comment much on the effectiveness on the M4, as when I'm Specops, I make a point of not needing it. In CQB it's awsome.

Also, Since it's now a requestable kit, I feel some of the hate has lessened.
At least i think for myself, whenever (rarely) I see one, is that the guy is on a mission,
but if he's in my squad, and I haven't specifically requested it, it's a warning, and subsequently kicked out.

The one gripe I have, is that the slams are too weak, I can see why, but a timed C4 like charge wouldn't be too "imba"

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-01-31 13:12

I agree with those saying that the SOF kit isn't a "contact" kit. It really is useful for it's special equipment, AKA SOFLAM and SLAMs, and if used in combat it is going to have trouble even against iron sight classes.

It is rarely used, but I think that's fitting for the class.

Post by **Masaq** » 2008-01-31 15:01

Everyone's pretty much summed it up.

SpecOps kits aren't there to try and engage people with battle rifles (G3) and assault rifles (QBZ-95, L85, M16, AK-series) on their own terms.

As a SpecOps you're bless with a SOFLAM - meaning if you have a SO squad with a SL and all three SO kits, you've got four guys who can designate targets for air strikes. That puts you on a par with engineers, pilots and Heavy AT guys - you're able to take out heavy armour.

You've got the upper hand on most infantry at extremely close range so long as you get the jump on them. Why engage at 200m when you know your weapon is far more likely to come out tops at 20m?

You've got SLAMs to destroy light vehicles with - also very useful for clearing bunkers and firebases with.

Now if they could just get a grappling hook they'd be awesome kits - when used correctly.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » 2008-01-31 15:02

The kit just needs a grappling hook to simulate the special ability of such units to take alternate routes away from enemy to the target area.

Through the 2 kits limit there would be max 2 squads with the ability of special forces units to clear buildings from roof to bottom or get over a wall to engage enemys from behind.

I think that would make this kit unique and atractive, without give it to much firepower.

The m4 red dot is a good gun for the spec ops, and there is no need for any other gun or optics. Its a cqb class with a good mid- ranged gun.

He got a soflam so he can go spot, but for that he will need a sniper on his side like in real life.

But he should get nades or flashs instead of smoke. If hes with asniper or a squad there is enough smoke. But spec ops need to clear rooms and go on point in cqb.

Waaah_Wah · Post by **Waaah_Wah** » 2008-01-31 16:54

Whaaat? The kit is great. M4 is a beast when shooting at someone whos no more than 150 meters away(and you shouldnt really use it for "sniping"). Righ ROF + low recoil = SEX. Seriously, at 100 meters you can use the gun on full auto (aim for the crouch and you will hit with 3 shots

)

Its just one thing i dont get about that kit, wtf (as in why) does the specops kit have red (or was it green?) smoke? A grapple would be much better.

The kit is actually pretty usefull for spotting, CQC, and sabotage (SLAM's should be a littlebit more powerfull

)

Gyberg · Post by **Gyberg** » 2008-01-31 17:03

Cas, I was in your squad. the main problem was not that we had a SF kit.... it was the fact that the squadleader had it, Im sure that it can be put to much greater use if a member use it instead. No offence meant you did great job leading...

lunchbox311 · Post by **lunchbox311** » 2008-01-31 18:00

I was playing in a squad with CAS_117 a couple of days ago. We were on one of the Militia maps (do not remember which one.... Fools Road I believe.)

He was playing spec ops and was trying to do our squad a big favor by being the lone man recon for our squad (and team for that matter.)

I know at one point he was giving us troop positions and rally point locations while most of the squad was assaulting a CP.

He had spotted a rally point and was keeping watch while I moved in to destroy it, (I was marksmen at the time.)

He was overwhelmed by a couple of militia with the uber AK

Anyway, I moved in and took down the rally. My internet went down shortly after that so I did not see how stuff went afterwards.

He was a good asset to the team, but really I think the kit does need something more. By the time people realize where you are spotting stuff it is usually too late to be effective.

Assets that would make good targets either take too long to get to (because you must go SO out of the way) or are so heavily defended that you cannot get to them without a suicide charge dropping the slams as you go.

Lack of commanders that care to use the Spec Ops players effectively does not help either.

I tend to play a Spec Ops style, (though without the kit because I have not requested one,) when I play or lead a squad; (which I get requests to do more and more often so I guess I do a decent job).
I usually take indirect paths to get somewhere and am pretty good at avoiding the enemy for long periods of time. All in all though, I would rather pick up an engineer kit 99.9% of the time rather than the SOF kit.
Give engineer a scoped rifle and you have a better SOF kit all the way around.

charliegrs · Post by **charliegrs** » 2008-01-31 20:53

i could never understand why the grenadier got flashbangs and not the spec ops. i mean doesnt the grenadier have enough cool stuff already? since the spec ops weapon is so good at cqc engagements, why not make him a lil better at it by giving him flashbangs? and the spec does desperately need to get a grapple too.

Death_dx · Post by **Death_dx** » 2008-01-31 21:27

Waaah_Wah wrote:Whaaat? The kit is great. M4 is a beast when shooting at someone whos no more than 150 meters away(and you shouldnt really use it for "sniping"). Righ ROF + low recoil = SEX. Seriously, at 100 meters you can use the gun on full auto (aim for the crouch and you will hit with 3 shots )

Its just one thing i dont get about that kit, wtf (as in why) does the specops kit have red (or was it green?) smoke? A grapple would be much better.

The kit is actually pretty usefull for spotting, CQC, and sabotage (SLAM's should be a littlebit more powerfull )

I believe the red smoke is for marking the extraction point. Useful on occassion I believe but not absolutely necessary.

Post by **Spec** » 2008-01-31 21:39

charliegrs wrote:i could never understand why the grenadier got flashbangs and not the spec ops. i mean doesnt the grenadier have enough cool stuff already? since the spec ops weapon is so good at cqc engagements, why not make him a lil better at it by giving him flashbangs? and the spec does desperately need to get a grapple too.

DarthDisco · Post by **DarthDisco** » 2008-01-31 21:51

While I sympathize with the fact that the M4 and other carbines are weak sauce at medium - long range, I also happen to agree that the kit is largely adequate for its current role in the game.

Only 2 things I believe would make it more useful.
1. Grappling Hook (or maybe the rope gun? perhaps only on maps where engineers already have grapples, that way you can do the whole grapple/slide thing.)
2. Silenced pistol. If any class in the game can realistically be expected to carry a silenced weapon, its these guys. I know a guy who used to be a Marine Corps Special Forces Sniper, and on some of his force recon misssions guys would take along a freaken sword just so they could kill quietly, another guy took a crossbow.

(HUN)Rud3bwoy · Post by **(HUN)Rud3bwoy** » 2008-01-31 22:17

Since there are only 2 maps where you can call for air support, the specop's soflam is not a very special asset, because all SLs have that. Destroying a bunker or firebase with slams is too risky because enemies spawn there all the time and will blast you away on sight and you cant do much about it with the m4. Many stated before that SF kit is not a contact kit. Well destroying a bunker or firebase involves contact pretty much. Taking out light vehicles with slams is: 1. Too risky if ppl are around it (see the reasons above) 2. Unnecesseary if the vehicle is abandoned and there are no enemies in the area.
Right now if you want to destroy a bunker or a firebase, you are better off with an engineer kit. In fact with engineers you can destroy unsuspecting heavy vehicles too.
So maybe the only thing specops can do right now is spotting targets, which is again not very special since every vehicle, SLs and snipers can do that.
I didnt play much with this kit in the previous versions either, but I think they were more useful back then.
Thing is, I dont have any idea what to do about the kit to adapt to 0.7+ ,be useful and not make it into an overpowered kit at the same time.

Post by **Spearhead** » 2008-01-31 22:20

Well I personally agree with much being said here. I personally think that we so much wanted to get rid of those 12 year old boys playing run & gun with the spec ops kit and generally behaving like in vanilla that we nerfed this one down to the ground and then stomped onto it.

I personally think since it's limited right now and only available 1 or 2 times (at 8+ and 24+) we should give this kit something to make it shine. Those Special Ops guys are usually VERY proficient with their weapons so it would only make sense to give them much less weapons deviation (especially on the pistol and while moving). The grappling hook is something worth debating as is the silenced pistol.

With only few spec ops kits available it should be lethal if accompanied with stealth. For long engagement ranges other kits like the rifleman and the marksmen should have the upper hand. Very important for the spec ops is the observer role and that works very nicely currently.

I'll be discussing changes to the spec ops internally stating my opinion there, too. Don't count on everyone agreeing with me but maybe we will be throwing that class a bone.

Post by **Spec** » 2008-01-31 23:04

It may sound leet, but its not supposed to. Its not a run and gun weapon, and without shiny red dot not even attractive for those "12 years old nilla noobs" - i always said give the spec ops a silenced primary, like the MP5SD which would work for the most armies afaik (US and UK i think are using the MP5 for special forces and MEC... well, would fit into the G3 series). Just an idea. The weapon would still be "weak enough" to keep the special forces away from combat, would still be useful at close quarters (low recoil, maybe less deviation), instead of a silenced pistol. This would make this range very close quarters usable only, but would still be good for being silent and entering buildings (with blinded enemies inside it should be possible to kill them even with 9mm). Not a weapon for open combat but only for killing one or two guys that are defending something or whatever. Maybe without distant sound and muzzle flash so noone who's not in the area notices it...

Thats not a "i want", but only "i think". Dont beat me, i do not want the class to be leet, only to be useful. And tbh, they are special forces. And dont beat me because of my name, thats from SWAT4

I've never been using Spec Ops online since 0.5, and i guess i wont really do so until something changes...