Remove squad rally points?

[SleepyHe4d]

This is something I mentioned in the 'remove ammo bags' thread:

Squad rallies need to be completely removed for similar reasons. It just makes the squad kind of a one squad army and it diminishes the usefulness of transport helis and apcs (for their intended use anyhow).

That brings up another thing, is it possible to set limits on what vehicles squad members can use if other squad members are using certain vehicles? Like make it impossible for more than one apc to be used by a squad and also make it impossible for squads using tanks to use apcs. Seriously I've only ever seen apcs used as light attack vehicles so the devs need to reinforce the idea that it's a squad support and transport vehicle.

Anyhow, SleepyHe4d that's an interesting thought about the rallies. You are right in that transport vehicles are hardly ever used thanks to rally points. Thing is though with that, regrouping the squad would become exceedingly difficult.

Normally what an Infantry squad does is when someone dies, they'll wait for the others to spawn at the rally point and regroup at some middle ground between the rally and the target. Without the rally... O man... you'd have to wait for your guys to come back from a nearby bunker or firebase and/or the main base.

Granted, having firebases and bunkers would be top priority in this case. So it could work it in this regard. Basically, you'd be restricted to spawning on bunkers, firebases and your own main base. Not having a commander means failure. Might even see squads dedicated to defending these assets.

It's a whole different subject though, probably worth starting a thread over.

I think that pretty much explains it.

In reply to, "...with that, regrouping the squad would become exceedingly difficult."

True, but that would just promote better teamwork and may just solve that problem by itself in that sense, not to mention what you said. I believe medic is another under-appreciated asset and the revive ability isn't used to it's full potential. If the squad realizes it's gonna be hard to regroup then I bet you'd actually see squads laying down full suppressive fire to let a medic quickly revive someone and then retreat to safety. I think you'd also see squads sticking way closer together for this too.

That is speaking for the AAS gametype though, Insurgency works differently and I think keeping the rally points for the insurgent faction would represent their playstyle well and just be good for the gameplay. If the ammo bags do end up being removed then the insurgents rally points should supply ammo too.

[$kelet0r]

Along with a dozen other things that definitely should be removed imo (defibs, medic bags, ammo bags, magic map), yes rally point spawning is a bit of a stretch but then again, remember the hordes demanding that squadleader spawn be kept
While I would love to see PR go on to greater and greater combat realism, I think that between the limitations of the engine and the fickleness of the players that we cut our losses and hope that Operation Flashpoint 2 is any good or that ARMA 2 amends for the turd that ARMA was/is

[SleepyHe4d]

Doing all that would ruin the gameplay obviously while I'm actually taking the gameplay into account. As long as you can add realism while also adding gameplay it should be done imo. :\

Actually I'm for removing ammo bags and magic maps too. Medic is definitely needed though. ><

[Tef]

Along with a dozen other things that definitely should be removed imo (defibs, medic bags, ammo bags, magic map), yes rally point spawning is a bit of a stretch but then again, remember the hordes demanding that squadleader spawn be kept
While I would love to see PR go on to greater and greater combat realism, I think that between the limitations of the engine and the fickleness of the players that we cut our losses and hope that Operation Flashpoint 2 is any good or that ARMA 2 amends for the turd that ARMA was/is

Why should the defibs be removed?

[[T]Terranova7]

Voted yes.

It's a good idea for the following reasons.

- Decreases the overall spam that occurs at CPs.
What usually happens is offensive squads will place RPs around the flag their attacking. What ends up happening is that the CP defenders have to deal with an endless wave of assault. Where the only way to make a successful defense is to sally out and search for the enemy rally, which can term into a spam fest once found.

- Increases importance of having Firebases & Bunkers
Often times even when a firebase is deployed currently. No one uses it except to pick up a Heavy AT or Anti-Air, or when the respective squad's rally point is destroyed. They simply spawn in and make a new one else where.

- Increases the need for good transport squads. Using transport vehicles such as Helicopters and Jeeps only seem useful during the initial part of the round. With rally points, they're no longer needed and hardly ever see extensive use.

- Stresses the need to stay alive, making medics much more crucial.
Pretty self-explanatory. I think having the ability to prolong your critically wounded state by an extra minute or so would be useful, as those 30 seconds you get before a medic can get to you usually don't last long in a slow paced game like PR.

- Slows down gameplay
Slowing down gameplay is I think one of PR's overall goals. Like the SL spawn, rally points kinda add this gameyness where players spawn in on the rally, then rush into the fire, knowing full well that upon death you can easily respawn on your rally point.

I don't expect many people to vote yes, but I think if the changes are made, people would eventually adapt and get used to it.

[Wolfe]

Before you can discuss removing rally spawning, you first must address the ease of which ease of which soldiers die and the difficulty of trying to revive them. Otherwise the consequence will be disastrous.

[Tef]

I have mixed feeling about removing rallies because:
1)Initially in a round there is a mad scramble for transports and if you don't get one you get to walk and must squads just leave the transport anywhere and that won't make it reaspawn.

But

2)Removal would make it more realistic.

[LekyIRL]

I agree with Tef,removing the rally would be really realistic but if you didn't have a good commander,where would you spawn?

[SleepyHe4d]

Before you can discuss removing rally spawning, you first must address the ease of which ease of which soldiers die and the difficulty of trying to revive them. Otherwise the consequence will be disastrous.

Like I said this problem might solve itself though, with the teamplay this would promote the whole squad would be working to revive a downed soldier and he would most likely be nearby since the squad would stick together because of this situation.

Doesn't this at least deserve a playtest anyhow?

[$kelet0r]

Why should the defibs be removed?

since when was the cure of 7.62mm bullet holes electrical shock therapy?

Discussed here with differing ideas
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ystem.html

[Tef]

If they give you more transports to work with then spawning at the main base wouldn't be so bad.

[BloodBane611]

Totally disagree.

-Gameplay is already pretty slow. By removing rallys you need to make up for this with an insane amount of vehicles, or convince a lot of truck drivers to join the game so they can continue their monotonous jobs online.

-Medics are already overrepresented in PR. With most squads having a medic, that means you have about 1/7 or 1/8 of your players as medics. That's a bloody lot, and they still have trouble keeping everyone alive.

-When you're ambushed and get shot in the head, all you have to look forward to is a long walk. Whereas with the rally, you have the chance to regroup with your squad, take stock, and move on.

-Single squads do not represent their counterparts in RL. A 6 man squad in PR is much more representative of a platoon, in the same way that each team represents 300 or 400 people via tickets, not the 32 that will most likely be playing.

-There are not enough Bunkers/Firebases to go around. You've got a maximum of 2 of each, with the bunkers having to be within 100 meters of a flag. So you've got 2 spawn points you can place away from naturally attacked locations, and in order to move them you have to destroy them, move a supply truck, etc. PITA, whereas an infantry unit moving out on its own in RL would simply grab their gear and move.

Yes, people who stayed would definitely adapt. But on the other hand, who would want to make PR MORE about walking than it currently is? Also, very few people in the army work in transport because it is FUN. But everyone who comes to play PR is here to have fun. Helos, definitely fun. Killing people, quite fantastic. Walking from GB main across fools road so you can hit the last flag, super sucky. Not interested.

[Tef]

since when was the cure of 7.62mm bullet holes electrical shock therapy?

Discussed here with differing ideas
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ystem.html

Well thats what the bandages are for but the defib restarts their heart.

[Masaq]

Sigh.. Fail. Don't anybody ever use the "medics aren't realistic" argument - because they're not SUPPOSED to be.

PR can't model the effects of varying types of wounds and injuries, and nor can it model the full logistical chain needed to get a wounded infantryman from the place where he gets shot back to a hospital in-theatre (or even in his home country).

So, the whole zapping thing represents the ability of medical units close to the front lines to get mildly-wounded soldiers up on their feet and back into the fight - whereas outright death doesn't indicate that your actual avatar has outright died, merely that their wounds are so severe that they need to be removed from the area of operations and sent off elsewhere to get patched up. (Obviously though if they've been headshotted or blown up then they're probably dead-dead, I guess.)


As for the topic proper: erm. Nahhh. Transports are used fine, by units that know how to use them properly. Rallypoints are good for cohension and allow teams to control an area; something you can't do with 2 firebases.

[Tef]

Masaq;608832']Sigh.. Fail. Don't anybody ever use the "medics aren't realistic" argument - because they're not SUPPOSED to be.

PR can't model the effects of varying types of wounds and injuries, and nor can it model the full logistical chain needed to get a wounded infantryman from the place where he gets shot back to a hospital in-theatre (or even in his home country).

So, the whole zapping thing represents the ability of medical units close to the front lines to get mildly-wounded soldiers up on their feet and back into the fight - whereas outright death doesn't indicate that your actual avatar has outright died, merely that their wounds are so severe that they need to be removed from the area of operations and sent off elsewhere to get patched up. (Obviously though if they've been headshotted or blown up then they're probably dead-dead, I guess.)


As for the topic proper: erm. Nahhh. Transports are used fine, by units that know how to use them properly. Rallypoints are good for cohension and allow teams to control an area; something you can't do with 2 firebases.

Yeah I agree with that.

I would though like to see a drag function of sorts for crit wounded person, so when you revive somebody doesn't automatically get shot up again.

[Wolfe]

Like I said this problem might solve itself though, with the teamplay this would promote the whole squad would be working to revive a downed soldier and he would most likely be nearby since the squad would stick together because of this situation.

If everyone played with the same caution, yes, but this is not the case. You will always have players with no regard for their life, charging in wildly, which completely disrupts any kind of squad cohesion trying to defend against it.

If anything..

I would advocate increasing the spawn time to 60 seconds and reducing the effectiveness of medic bags. This allows more time for medics to reach a fallen soldier but require more time to get him up to fighting status. All of this would simultaneously help to reduce the spammy tactic of throwing troops at a target every 30 seconds until it's destroyed.

[ConscriptVirus]

no no to the idea. remember PR is still a game and there are some things u have to stray away from in RL to keep it a game. like im pretty sure real battles last usually a few days and alot of hte times ur just waiting.

plus, rally points make up for the fact that u usually have platoons or companies assaulting CPs, not 6 man squads. respawning at rally is like playing another person in the company

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

Don't do it.

Removing rally points would promote teamwork... but there is only 32 players per team, some of those players would have to play as a dedicated transport teams. It's already not enough infantry on some maps to capture flags and this idea would drag away even more players to transport vehicles.

It would be good idea but only with a lot more then 64 players on the server.


Maybe this idea would actually work along with increased number of bunkers/firebases (like one bunker/firbase for every captured flag)... maybe.

EDIT: It could also work with "crittical wounded state" extended to... couple minutes (so the medics could be more usefull).

[Sadist_Cain]

DOOOO IT.... DOOOOO IIIITTTTTT!!!!!!

Make the rally point an ammo store

Sick of fellows not valuing their virtual life. Dosn't need to be compensated with huge amounts of vehicles, it needs to be compensated with an forced training system to get a very large player base to grips with essential gameplay aspects such as TRANSPORT which isn't too hard.

will be awesome battle stress as an SL to keep my lads alive and get them into the most effective position where they can do the most damage and stay alive.

Rather than "I have L-AT I'm going for the kill... Oh I'm dead, I'll get another in 30 seconds"

Noooo you'll be DEAD (loosely speaking ) you won't pop back into life instantaniously and grab the same kit to "try again" more so, You're genetic copy will be flown in after a certain amount of time to reinforce the squad.

Or teamwork will fall apart Vet's will lock themselves away in closed rooms, no one will be trained and no one will be bother

WHAT IF for once people wanted to learn but MOST IMPORTANTLY TEACH just how freaking awesome it can be to just Forget about the Rally points for once.
Move your entire squad through a city loaded with hostiles, Your men get shot and wounded you must pull together to cover the medic (and his massive steel balls) as he dives in to give him essential first aid and pull him back to give Morphine and get him back into the fight

Everyone is on edge... everyone is alert NOONE wants to die and end up back at main.
I'm holding back making sure the formation is held; rather than watching the usual green clump of snot heading for a flag like the squadmembers been sneezed fresh from Rambos nose.
AK-47s start crackling, "DIVE FOR COVER!!!" grenades explode, "TEKNESH IS DOWN, MEEEEEDIIICC!!!!!" SUPPORTING FIRE KEEP US ALIVE!!!

And for once Squadleaders may just for ONCE say this...

"FALL BACK IT'S TOO HOT!!! DISENGAGE WE NEED EXTRACTION WE'RE FALLING APART!!!!!"
OMGZ0RZ! A call for help?!?! sooo not L33t

But very dam cool

Where am I right now?


Put simply *ahem* +1

1 word to this suggestion
NO.
Keeping a squad together is hard enough as it is, coupled with the fact certin maps need RP's to be any fun. That being said this will probably turn into a "fun vs realism" thread. Being without the SL spawn is and having only the RP is perfect, and it should stay this way.

Ok you go off to the Community mods and start off Project Fun *Hopefully* the mod will continue to thrive on to be Project Reality The arguement is stone cold but that's the name of the game (literally)

As long as your SL isn't retarded and your squad mates aren't too retarded you should be alright.

Exactly! Hence the need to really focus on Training which no one wants to do because they all go on here for themselves.
Now I'm not one to preach or tell you how to play your game, Just gonna say if no one teaches anyone just how great this mod can be as opposed to reducing it to a matter of hitpoints and respawn times/locations to compensate for stupidity in gameplay.

Retarded is a strong word to be using I highly doubt that anyone playing PR is "severly Mentally Challenged" and even if they were, compensate for the Difficulty

Tis easy enough to lead people who you origional think are idiots just because they don't see things your way, Change their minds! THAT is what defines a Leader!

/End Soapbox

P.S. I Know I'm holding back a Tidal wave with a sieve on this one but it would be seriously awesome... However increase Funkers and I think everyone will be surprised, Like I said we're gonna get nowhere if everyone is obsessed with keeping with their clanmates and not teaching others.

I guess I'm the only one who LOVES the Raw terror of not having a Rally point, I hate having to go and set up one of the buggers, I wanna lead my Soldiers into combat! not setup their Re-incarnation booth, Don't die then!

Isn't Spawning on Funkers enough??

***Funker = Firebase/Bunker


OK More reasonable... How about letting the SL have an RP limit... Say X2 Rallypoints can be set up?

I'm thinking the only place anyone sees an SL who dosn't set rallies is because hes a bad leader who can't be bothered.

I wanna try leading a NO RALLY Squad at some points and seeing if folk enjoy play when it HAS to be highly coordinated and tactical or else you're all dead.... Anyone up for that? Join my squad if you wanna follow orders and feel the atmosphere see if it's as good as thought or utter shite...

[Tef]

DOOOO IT.... DOOOOO IIIITTTTTT!!!!!!

Make the rally point an ammo store

Sick of fellows not valuing their virtual life. Dosn't need to be compensated with huge amounts of vehicles, it needs to be compensated with an forced training system to get a very large player base to grips with essential gameplay aspects such as TRANSPORT which isn't too hard.

will be awesome battle stress as an SL to keep my lads alive and get them into the most effective position where they can do the most damage and stay alive.

Rather than "I have L-AT I'm going for the kill... Oh I'm dead, I'll get another in 30 seconds"

Noooo you'll be DEAD (loosely speaking ) you won't pop back into life instantaniously and grab the same kit to "try again" more so, You're genetic copy will be flown in after a certain amount of time to reinforce the squad.

Or teamwork will fall apart Vet's will lock themselves away in closed rooms, no one will be trained and no one will be bother

WHAT IF for once people wanted to learn but MOST IMPORTANTLY TEACH just how freaking awesome it can be to just Forget about the Rally points for once.
Move your entire squad through a city loaded with hostiles, Your men get shot and wounded you must pull together to cover the medic (and his massive steel balls) as he dives in to give him essential first aid and pull him back to give Morphine and get him back into the fight

Everyone is on edge... everyone is alert NOONE wants to die and end up back at main.
I'm holding back making sure the formation is held; rather than watching the usual green clump of snot heading for a flag like the squadmembers been sneezed fresh from Rambos nose.
AK-47s start crackling, "DIVE FOR COVER!!!" grenades explode, "TEKNESH IS DOWN, MEEEEEDIIICC!!!!!" SUPPORTING FIRE KEEP US ALIVE!!!

And for once Squadleaders may just for ONCE say this...

"FALL BACK IT'S TOO HOT!!! DISENGAGE WE NEED EXTRACTION WE'RE FALLING APART!!!!!"
OMGZ0RZ! A call for help?!?! sooo not L33t

But very dam cool

Where am I right now?


Put simply *ahem* +1

As long as your SL isn't retarded and your squad mates aren't too retarded you should be alright.