Removal of Ammo Bag

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-02-15 00:19

I personally, having great experience both in vehicles and as an infantryman, would say the the ammobag is extremely unrealistic, and that this lack of realism hurts gameplay. Mine spamming, LAT spamming, and the occasional HAT spamming, would all be reduced if the bag was changed. I have had many instances, either as a R-AT/Engineer or an ammo class, where just using so much ammo has felt really unrealistic to me. On one hand, yes, soldiers use a lot of ordnance. On the other, they actually have to carry that, or have it delivered by a vehicle. 6 guys are going to be carrying a max of 6 rockets, and most likely far fewer, probably more like 1. So even with the idea that squads represent a larger unit than they are, it's just not enjoyable for me to be on either end of this spamming, even if it is effective.

DeePsix · Post by **DeePsix** » 2008-02-15 00:24

What if: The people who carry ammo CANNOT resupply their ammo bag again? So Ammo carriers can provide some extra ammo for special equipment, but amount of ammo the bag offers is LESS than the amount needed to get another Ammo bag.

I like the idea of needing other teammates for resupply (especially AT teams) but I don't like the spamming of rockets, even though you get them slowly.

HughJass · Post by **HughJass** » 2008-02-15 00:25

rally's should just become ammo-points, and so should light transports.

ReaperMAC · Post by **ReaperMAC** » 2008-02-15 00:29

DeePsix wrote:What if: The people who carry ammo CANNOT resupply their ammo bag again? So Ammo carriers can provide some extra ammo for special equipment, but amount of ammo the bag offers is LESS than the amount needed to get another Ammo bag.

OMG, like thats what I stated earlier in the thread!

DeePsix · Post by **DeePsix** » 2008-02-15 00:30

No Wai?

I didn't see it. We're geniuses!

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-02-15 03:57

Expendable Grunt wrote:It's not a long range weapon, IRL only 300m. In game, I don't use it beyond 150, depending on which one I have.

I know it isn't a long range weapon in real life, I figured a blank before and its range is not that much, but I never said it was. I said that you can't hit jack up close with it or medium range, especially vehicles on the move because the arc and random deviation are jacked up if you turn to the side even slightly.

Terranova wrote:Who said the ammo bags were broken? The SL spawn wasn't broken, but it was removed for what, to better the gameplay right? The objective here is to remove the ammo bag in the hope of achieving the same goal.

Keep comments like your second paragraph to yourself, like Warmagi said you're borderline being arrogant.

The SL respawn WAS broken because you could respawn infinite reinforcements into battle while in the heat of battle. The ammo bag is not providing you with extra soldiers to aid you in battle, just more ammo. If you are alone, than the ammo bag is pretty much useless. If you are with a squad acting as an RPG squad, that is teamwork right there, plain and simple and like in real life.

I especially find it funny that since the SL respawn has been nerfed, people are now complaining about RPs being a problem! When will people be happy?

And trust me, when I see these stuff all the time, I am not being arrogant, just honest.

Warmagi wrote:Last time I used LAT I was firing at over 300 m(250 -320) and my SL was amazed looking threw SOFLAM that Im hitting targets with such accuracy. And yes, I was reloading from ammo bag. I was shooting from a hill, something like 25 -30 shoots. To addition to that we were firing HAT rounds,grenade luncher and machine gunner into that villege until our forces were able to capture it due to the minimal resistance.

The key word there is "minimal resistance." That takes much, much more teamwork and coordination anyday than just falling back and rearming from some absurb location like a supply box that may not even be there. That is basically a mortar team right there, and as I said before and you even mention, if the enemy doesn't attack you, than whose fault is it? Theirs of course.

And what I dont like about ammo bag? Not the thing that someone was seating on a hill creating hell on earth with all the explosions and lead, being more effective than any tank and APC together. I dont like that I was there, that we had at least couple of trucks full of rockets, ammo and other supplies in one little BAG!!!!

And would it be any more realistic if you stood in one spot with a supply box, which would arguably only hold a maybe a few rockets, any more "realistic?" No.

So... Soldier of Fortune (no offence intended) stop being an ignorant. If you run out of ammo in the middle of firefight either you need to hide, take some ammo from others(which we cant do in BF due to the engine) or pick up enemy gun and his ammo, or... resupply in a place where supplies are stored. And not by taking out rockets, grenades (how many times we spammed the flag with nades for a few minutes - that shouldnt be happening)and other counless things from a little bag.

I am one of the last people on this site who will be ignorant, I just tell it as it is. What I see though, is too many newbies or guys who come on this site, and reguritate what others say without even playing the game for a length of time or without previous play in past patches. I have only played SL since 0.2 and been on this forum since than and know the ins and out of this game like the back of my hand and all I see now is either an influx of new players or the "uber realistic" crowd trying to influence the game to a point where it just wouldn't be fun anymore. There was a poll before and people voted for their favorite patch and it was 0.3. That alone shows you that all this "uber realism" is not necessary to have fun in a game.

And have you ever seen me play before? I always take cover to reload and rearm, have people guard, pick up enemy kits to take their bandages, etc. I play the game realistically and only as infantry, but the first thing I will tell you is that everything has already been nerfed to its fullest with the exception of grenades (people can carry too many, although, it is "realistic.")

-You have 1 Light AT round which takes forever to be reloaded by an ammo bag which has a deviation and lacks range.
-Grenades have a long reload time and then there is a delay when you are about to pull the pin and than actually throw it. (people just need less of them)
-The HAT has a 30 second reload time, another 15 seconds for the reticles to settle, takes two shots to destroy a tank, and the enemy tank still receives a warning signal when you are aiming.
-The grenade launcher is limited and only requestable, doesn't have ammo bags, and is not that accurate.
-Bandages have a long reload time, and than another delay before even throwing them down and they don't always work.

What else do you want? If you are killed by these things, than it is just wrong place, wrong time or you were not aware. Don't get me wrong, I like all the changes above with the exception of the HAT and LAT accuracy and aiming, but nerfing something will not stop people from getting killed in bs ways which is why I criticise the crowd that constantly complains on here about this and that and than covers it by the "realism" argument. Face it, this is still BF2 and a game and it is easy to die in it. Making things "realistic" will not stop that and can actually make it worse in cases.

If you run out of ammo in the middle of firefight either you need to hide, take some ammo from others(which we cant do in BF due to the engine)

That is what the ammo bag is for in the first place!!!!! It simulates the whole squads ammunition reserves.

I just hate the way the "ultra realism" crowd is having so much say on this forum because I feel that they will eventually ruin it by everything they are advocating and cater it towards the hardcore crowd only. I like realism and it is why I play this game, but a line needs to be drawn.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2008-02-15 04:17

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:

The SL respawn WAS broken because you could respawn infinite reinforcements into battle while in the heat of battle. The ammo bag is not providing you with extra soldiers to aid you in battle, just more ammo. If you are alone, than the ammo bag is pretty much useless. If you are with a squad acting as an RPG squad, that is teamwork right there, plain and simple and like in real life.

I especially find it funny that since the SL respawn has been nerfed, people are now complaining about RPs being a problem! When will people be happy?

And trust me, when I see these stuff all the time, I am not being arrogant, just honest.

Okay, and the fact that one man can provide an infinite amount of ammunition isn't broken? Besides the realism aspect of this, I'm arguing gameplay wise. There's a point where "teamwork" creates these gamey scenarios. A squad can potentially hold it's position indefinitely against an onslaught of infantry, armor, air and everything else the world can throw at them, regardless of how far away they are from what should be their supply line. This is why you end up with these H-AT basecampers, and Insurgents sitting outside the Airport with an IED for every british ticket.

If anything, this would just bring another element of teamwork and strategy to PR. Where a squad will need reinforcements to bring in extra supplies (Which in most cases, I imagine would be supplied by another friendly squad, or by the dedicated transport chopper). That's teamwork on a much greater level than having the one guy in your squad follow the AT man around. Strategy wise, squads might have to operate close by their own firebases. Going too far out (Like the enemies main base) might not be tactically sound unless you're doing recon or creating a small ambush. Otherwise, your squad might expend all of it's ammunition and may need extraction.

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-02-15 04:46

Terranova wrote:Okay, and the fact that one man can provide an infinite amount of ammunition isn't broken? Besides the realism aspect of this, I'm arguing gameplay wise. There's a point where "teamwork" creates these gamey scenarios. A squad can potentially hold it's position indefinitely against an onslaught of infantry, armor, air and everything else the world can throw at them, regardless of how far away they are from what should be their supply line. This is why you end up with these H-AT basecampers, and Insurgents sitting outside the Airport with an IED for every british ticket.

The HAT has been nerfed, so if you are baseraped with it, then it is your team's fault for not finding that guy. 1 shot every 30 seconds to a minute will not cause a lot of damage and it takes 1 shot to be aware of it.

And since when is rearming from an infinite building realistic either? Or a supply box? Or spawning at a small bunker, firebase, or rally point realistic? Many aspects of this game will never be realistic, because they are necessary gameplay wise.

As it is right now, armor already has a huge advantage because the HAT takes so long to setup and the warning alert.

If anything, this would just bring another element of teamwork and strategy to PR. Where a squad will need reinforcements to bring in extra supplies (Which in most cases, I imagine would be supplied by another friendly squad, or by the dedicated transport chopper). That's teamwork on a much greater level than having the one guy in your squad follow the AT man around. Strategy wise, squads might have to operate close by their own firebases. Going too far out (Like the enemies main base) might not be tactically sound unless you're doing recon or creating a small ambush. Otherwise, your squad might expend all of it's ammunition and may need extraction.

That is good in theory again, but how many times do you actually have choppers going around and dropping supply boxes at your request or even in your area. This maybe good on a small map or a straight line map like EJOD, but on maps like Kashan, Basrah, or Fool's Road, the squads cannot operate together because there are so many CPs or caches to capture/destory. Take away their resupply ability, and then you have armor steamrolling over everyone even more so than it is now. The resupply line works on certain conventional maps where there is an actual straight line, but PR is unconventional, since CPs can be anywhere and because everything moves so quickly and the terrain is not always flat, that supply line would be worthless or nonexistant.

And firebases are limited, so it is not like every squad can get one and when you move up, you usually cannot build another firebase for a while.

kilroy0097 · Post by **kilroy0097** » 2008-02-15 05:41

How pray tell does a squad on the move take out an APC if they have only one Rifleman AT guy and he has only one shot? Since you can't shoot out the wheels or the drive shaft or even disable the engine with a single LAW type rocket in the game. All you get is a slightly smoking APC who is now pissed off and takes out your entire squad.

So give the squad on the move the ability to take out something larger than a Humvee from range and I'll be happy. As it stands now without the ammo bag the Rifleman AT is useless against anything bigger than the Nanjing/Humvee/Vodnik. Even then it sometimes doesn't destroy even those things.

If the ammo bag goes away I highly recommend increasing the damage potential of the ONE SHOT Rifleman AT.

Expendable Grunt · Post by **Expendable Grunt** » 2008-02-15 14:06

kilroy0097 wrote:How pray tell does a squad on the move take out an APC if they have only one Rifleman AT guy and he has only one shot? Since you can't shoot out the wheels or the drive shaft or even disable the engine with a single LAW type rocket in the game. All you get is a slightly smoking APC who is now pissed off and takes out your entire squad.

So give the squad on the move the ability to take out something larger than a Humvee from range and I'll be happy. As it stands now without the ammo bag the Rifleman AT is useless against anything bigger than the Nanjing/Humvee/Vodnik. Even then it sometimes doesn't destroy even those things.

If the ammo bag goes away I highly recommend increasing the damage potential of the ONE SHOT Rifleman AT.

I'd say to double the number you can have on the map/squad.

Antonious_Bloc · Post by **Antonious_Bloc** » 2008-02-15 17:03

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:Man, you guys are never happy are you?

-The grenadier kit was nerfed, made requestable, and ammo taken away from it so people couldn't spam nades as easily.

-The ammo rifleman kit was not given optics, so if anyone actually plays it, he is cripled enough.

-The SAW is requestable, so that is pretty much nerfed as well.

-The Light AT was nerfed and does nothing against heavy armor now and it can't hit the backside of a barn, so that is that.

-The HAT is a huge POS now and even if you get a lock on a tank or apc and wait the 15 seconds you are in the open for your HAT redicules to settle, it takes TWO, count em, TWO shots to destroy a tank, so that is majorly nerfed.

So unless your side has uber armor, what are you supposed to do against enemy armor? I would much rather rely on my own squadmates which takes more teamwork than some outside tanker who I don't know jack about.

How would you not call that teamwork? You know what I DON'T call teamwork? Sitting in a ditch or tank, complaining and moaning about the other team(me/my squad) rearming itself and putting up a fight against an inferior force which obviously cannot pull itself together to attack and who would much rather rely on the Mods to give them the advantage instead of doing it themselves.

Seriously, stop complaining about a guy who rearms his HAT or Light AT from a magical bag because you already have 10x the advantage on him with all the nerfing and complicating that has happened to the mod.

This game doesn't and will never play out like real life, so stop trying to make it like it. You really think the US military (or any military at that) would fall back to rearm itself and lose its position lol? Maybe you should look back at a little battle called the "Battle of the Bulge." The military would never give up precious ground unless absolutely necessary.

QTF

Don't remove ammo bags. They only add to the teamwork and keep the game from being a pain in the ***.

Warmagi · Post by **Warmagi** » 2008-02-15 22:52

Fortune.... agree with you that HAT is nerfed to much. Agree about field dressings. Agree that soldiers are caring to many grenades.
Disagree that infinitebag of ammo is as realistic as a box which was delivered by someone and can run out of supplies in it.

If a bag (1 ammo rifleman)would supply lets say... up to 2 LAT's or 20 mags, or 5-10 grenades, 1 HAT. I would say LEAVE THE BAG ALONE. Its good. But your squad cant be an amunition factory.

and about rallies... if only there could be a number of spawns on one rally...

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2008-02-15 23:49

Warmagi wrote:Fortune.... agree with you that HAT is nerfed to much. Agree about field dressings. Agree that soldiers are caring to many grenades.
Disagree that infinitebag of ammo is as realistic as a box which was delivered by someone and can run out of supplies in it.

If a bag (1 ammo rifleman)would supply lets say... up to 2 LAT's or 20 mags, or 5-10 grenades, 1 HAT. I would say LEAVE THE BAG ALONE. Its good. But your squad cant be an amunition factory.

And how realistic is some guy in a truck driving around and delivering a supply box at the front lines? It isn't. And where are you even going to find this guy at who wants to spend his time driving around a CO truck and handing out ammo? By taking the CO truck, it is accurately making the CO or SLs job harder by not having access to a supply truck.

and about rallies... if only there could be a number of spawns on one rally...

No, they are fine as they are now. Touch them and I guarentee you that half the community will drop off or be very pissed off. And as we already said, rallypoints are real. In real life, the military does set up rallypoints to regroup at.

NickO wrote:If the ammo bags were removed it would basically be IMPOSSIBLE to have on access ammo in the front line.

Who the hell would spend a whole round driving a support truck around dropping crates?

NONE. People play to have fun not to work.

And firebases/bunkers are FALLBACK locations. They are not forward "bases" like rally points.

Agreed.

kilroy0097 · Post by **kilroy0097** » 2008-02-23 16:45

I personally see absolutely no overwhelming unbalance or issues with the infinite ammo pack as it exists now. Abuse, if any, is so very much out weighed by proper usage. However if limited ammo bags did get put in you have a series of severe issues to worry about including not only usability but also code.

1. In current form the Light Anti-Vehicle (I don't consider the LAW an AT weapon) Rifleman is not able to take out a tank without reloading many many times. Its not really all that feasible and probably shouldn't be attempted unless the tank is severely damaged. So given that the LAT kit has only one shot it's only use is against Light Assault Vehicles. Against APCs or Tanks the only option for the squad is either a unrealistic charge at the armor with C4 and Mines or run quickly away and hide. So an increase of damage from the LAT missile is needed and possible two instead of one shot.

2. The HAT (Heavy Anti-Tank) kit is only available at Main, Bunkers/Fire Bases. And is limited to two kits per team on a full 64 player server. These are the only kits which can take out a Tank, with two hits or an APC with one or two hits depending on placement. It only gets two shots before it runs out. It's a powerful kit but also very limited. Thankfully they are giving this kit an actual rifle so it's of some use to an infantry squad.

Note: Can you get a HAT and LAT in the same squad upon request kit and not taking kit from dead person?

3. If Supply kit only has one ammo bag then greatly increase the amount of ammo that one bag gives out. I better get the most bang for my buck on that one ammo pack if it's my only one. I'm talking multiple medic kits, a few LATs, a couple of HATs, multiple clips of ammo, a decent amount of grenades and smoke grenades, etc. After all I'm never getting it back. But then there is an issues also with that.

4. Obviously you should be able to get an ammo bag back at main base, bunker/fire bases and supply boxes. All these locations/items have code in them that allows the soldier or vehicle to reload expendable ammunition. This feature is either on or off. So here is the problem. An ammo bag is an object that gives ammo to a certain point. No doubt each type of ammo has a point value and the ammo bag has a limited point total associated with it. If a soldier can not recharge his ammo bag from another ammo bag, which is what is being suggested (limited ammo bags) then it would have to be classified as an item all to itself. It could not be linked as Armor weaponry because it needs to be resupplied from supply crates and armor do not get rounds from crates. So if it's not class 1 and not class 2 then a new class 3 will have to be created. I'm not certain how hard that will be but it's certainly more code that the engine might not be capable of. (BF2 Vanilla tanks could rearm from Supply Crates but not Ammo packs so two classes were already coded into the game with some sort of flag most likely.)

So that's my amateur look at it take it or leave it.

[T]Terranova7 · Post by **[T]Terranova7** » 2008-02-23 19:09

00SoldierofFortune00 wrote:And how realistic is some guy in a truck driving around and delivering a supply box at the front lines? It isn't. And where are you even going to find this guy at who wants to spend his time driving around a CO truck and handing out ammo? By taking the CO truck, it is accurately making the CO or SLs job harder by not having access to a supply truck.

I disagree. Supply/logistics is a crucial element of warfare. People don't talk about supply lines in a strategic sense for nothing. Soldiers/Marines can run low on ammunition/supplies out in the field, so it becomes imperative that they can receive extra when needed.

I disagree about the second part too. They're are plenty of people who would probably take on such a task. Not everyone wants to run and shoot all day, even in a game.

That's why there are always people making dedicated transport squads, and on large armor maps someone is always willing to tag along the armor squad doing nothing the whole round but repairing damaged tanks. Or how a Spec Ops/Officer will do nothing but lase targets for his/her pilot squad. Hell, even driving a tank/APC can be considered boring, but people do it and have fun doing so.

The sense of teamwork that these sort of positions fulfill make these jobs pretty attractive.

Pariel · Post by **Pariel** » 2008-02-23 19:53

I agree that the ammo bag is full out broken, although I make great use of it.

I took out 3 tanks with a HAT kit and a support gunner with me on Kashan yesterday, in the space of maybe 5 minutes. Granted, the tankers were borderline retarded and not working together, but realistically no two infantryman are going to to take out 3 Abrams with only the kit they walk around with.

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2008-02-25 22:02

kilroy0097 wrote: Note: Can you get a HAT and LAT in the same squad upon request kit and not taking kit from dead person?

Yup.

I really want it gone though, as has been said there's alot of dedicated people that will fly and drive transport that will sort these problems out and add to gameplay. Since there's a realistic supply of ammo in the loadouts there needs to be a realistic absence of resupply, no-one really values ammunition enough at the moment apart from a little bit with AT/AA kits.

Warmagi · Post by **Warmagi** » 2008-02-26 01:16

Ofcourse people would do it. Last time on kashan I was flying MEC transport. I was either delivering crates or people all the time. Guess what... First I had a great time, second when ppl and commander knew Im the MAN they requested for supply drops and pick ups setting safe landing zones. That was a great round.

Post by **fuzzhead** » 2008-02-26 22:17

some changes are being made to ammo bags, hold your horses guys

i think youll like the changes, its small but good and is basically a compromise between the 2 camps.