Minimaps, 9mm sidearms and more..

[DeltaFart]

Thought I was going to cry when he said the 9mm should be 1 hit kill The 9mm has what 100 some on grains in it? It goes right through the person because of speed, not making alot of damage, while the 7.62 and 5.56 are always 250 grains plus, going a lot faster.
Just because its 9mm it's still only a pistol

[BloodBane611]

I'm not getting this whole SVD ROF thing. It's semi-auto, it will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. What's wrong with it?

[DeltaFart]

um, 9mm para ~ 120 gr
7.62 ~ 146.6 gr
5.56 ~ 62 gr

Is the 556 really onlny 62? Wow if it wasn't for the speed, the 9mm would be a better thing to shoot at insurgents with
But yeah, I only use 30-06 and 45 so I wouldn't know that

[ReadMenace]

Yeah, I just looked on wikipedia for some rough values, I thought the 5.56 was lighter from the balistics I did.

5.56 cartdiges that have been used by the US military range from 55gr to (M193) to 77gr (Mk262 mod1).

The current standard is 62gr (M855).

-REad

[Spec]

So, if 9mm does not penetrate a cevlar helmet, and (maybe?) does not cause too much damage to the person when it doesnt (but i imagine it like a pretty hard "knock" against your head, wich should be dangerous... maybe someone knows more...) Why is the 9mm also 1 shot kill against enemies with helmets? How many bullets would one need to penetrate the helmet or to cause enough inner damage? How high is the chance to hit the face instead of the helmet? How lethal is a shot in the face, if the bullet does for any reason not hit the brain? How long would one be able to shoot?


Its probably not important enough i guess...
But i'd really want to know how dangerous a hit with 9mm against your helmet is.

[DeltaFart]

it's hit detection, you can't make it sense a helmet, first because BF2 engine stinks, second it's not fair gameplay wise, if you're an insurgent with no armor, against a marine and you shoot him with a BHP, and he doesn't die(this is iall ingame) you're gign to get mad and stop playing mod becvause you can't kill him
Now, with my experiences with teh 9mm in game, I put a whole magazine into the guys before they go down

[Spec]

Well, killing unarmored targets takes way less bullets anyway (One 7.62)
And since most soldiers got helmet, why not require 2 hits at the head (simulating a 50-50 chance to hit the face) only for 9mm? (Not used often - by both, insurgents and military. Only militia has quite a few SMGs in prolly a similar caliber, but with full auto it shouldnt really matter)

Just thinking, isnt that more realistic then?
Or is the chance of critical wound without penetration high enough to justify one hit kill?

(leaving the game balance out for a moment)

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

I'm not getting this whole SVD ROF thing. It's semi-auto, it will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger. What's wrong with it?

M14 can fire faster then an AK and I bet SVD is similar. In the link given it says effective rate of fire so they mean accurately. Maybe the suggestion should be that it has more recoil added to it

[DeltaFart]

Still it's a semi automatic rifle, as long as you keep yanking the trigger it should fire, my dad's fired two shots out of a garand with one pull because the recoil caused the trigger to break a second time, and it was so fast you couldn't tell where the first report ended and the seocnd one started

[Bob_Marley]

2. 9x19mm vs 7.62x51/54/39mm.

9mm Para/Luger - 124gr @ 1150 FPS (American Eagle FMJ)

7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester - 150gr @ 2648 FPS (American Eagle Boat-Tailed FMJ)

Source

In addition, the drop-off in energy experienced by the 9x19mm (due to its rather un-areodynamic shape) is difficult to model in game, as well as its short range power (that same shape means it transfers a great deal more of its energy to the target than the more streamlined 7.62). And remember kids, its all about energy transfer.

One must also bear in mind the proliferation of body armour in PR. Mind you, most military issue body armour isnt actually rated to stop 9mm rounds with the soft bits, though the ceramic plates definetly would (well, they should stop the first few, anyway) The energy transferring qualities of 9x19mm mean that it has poor penetration qualities. With body armour one needs a more clever design with tumbling and/or fragmentation. Or THV. But THV was loony.

3 - Practical rate of fire. During its time in use a fully trained marksman could achieve 30 ARPM with the Lee-Enfield bolt action if needed (Minimum standard was considered to be 15 ARPM). From the hip the SVD will kick out rounds pretty much as fast as you can pull the trigger. Practical rate of fire takes into account magazine changes, reallining sights and such. Now I don't know the exact cyclic rate of fire for the SVD, but I'll wager it'd be a good deal higher that 30.

9mm pistol rounds are *very* ineffective against all modern body armor.

This development leads us back to pistol ammunition, but this time with improved penetration capabilities rather than stealth. The proliferation of body armor rendered most military pistols, with its ammunition being about 100 years old, almost obsolete. The one way to deal with body armor is to adopt smaller-caliber, high velocity bullets for both pistols and submachine guns. This gives additional benefit of flatter trajectory and lessened recoil, both beneficial for accuracy. At the minus side, the terminal performance of the small-caliber, light weight bullets is somewhat questionable. After initial test and research, conducted since late 1980s under the codename “Grach”, Russian armed forces adopted an improved version of the world’s most popular pistol ammo, the 9x19 Parabellum. First produced circa 1994, this version of the 9mm features an armor piercing bullet of proprietary design, and a powerful powder charge, which brings this cartridge, officially designated as 7N21, to the +P+ level, with peak pressures running up to 2 800 kg per square meter. Armor piercing bullet for 7N21 ammo features a hardened steel penetrator core, enclosed into bimetallic jacket. The space between the core and jacked is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. Bullet of the similar design, but of lighter weight, is used in another service 9x19 cartridge, 7N31, which has been developed in late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol, and latter was adopted for PP-2000 submachine gun. Another offspring of the ”Grach” trials is the 9x21 family of ammunition. Adopted by the Federal Security Bureau (FSB) of Russian Federation, this cartridge in its basic form, known as SP-10, is more or less a stretched-out 7N21 cartridge with improved performance; 9x21 ammo also available in AP-T (tracer) and SP-11 low-ricochet ball (with lead core) bullets. This ammo is used in SPS “Gyrza” pistol and in SR-2 “Veresk” submachine gun.

Source

a 9mm pistol ammo wouldn't penetrate a kevlar helmet. Or at least it shouldn't, of course everything can happen but those helmets are supposed to be able to stop 9mm bullets. Not sure about the seconds part, but I'd imagine that no. The bullet is very light, so even though it moves fast the total force isn't that big.

Until now, there’s never been a helmet designed to stop bullets, said Elder. The MICH uses a different version of Kevlar combined with different bonding techniques to form a shell capable of halting a submachine gun’s 9 mm round in addition to protecting against fragmentation.

Source

So the Brand new American Helmets would. I doubt the current issue British MK6 (though this is in the process of being phased out for the MK6a) which is of a similar vintage to the old American PAGAST lid would hold up against them, and by extension I'd also question the ability of the MEC and PLA helmets to do the same.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

YouTube - Jon SVD bump

[DeltaFart]

I love that, hey someone see how fast that was, and multiply it by however much to get a minute, there's your ROF RPM

[Expendable Grunt]

Bob_Marley;612073']2. 9x19mm vs 7.62x51/54/39mm.

9mm Para/Luger - 124gr @ 1150 FPS (American Eagle FMJ)

7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester - 150gr @ 2648 FPS (American Eagle Boat-Tailed FMJ)

Source

In addition, the drop-off in energy experienced by the 9x19mm (due to its rather un-areodynamic shape) is difficult to model in game, as well as its short range power (that same shape means it transfers a great deal more of its energy to the target than the more streamlined 7.62). And remember kids, its all about energy transfer.

One must also bear in mind the proliferation of body armour in PR. Mind you, most military issue body armour isnt actually rated to stop 9mm rounds with the soft bits, though the ceramic plates definetly would (well, they should stop the first few, anyway) The energy transferring qualities of 9x19mm mean that it has poor penetration qualities. With body armour one needs a more clever design with tumbling and/or fragmentation. Or THV. But THV was loony.

3 - Practical rate of fire. During its time in use a fully trained marksman could achieve 30 ARPM with the Lee-Enfield bolt action if needed (Minimum standard was considered to be 15 ARPM). From the hip the SVD will kick out rounds pretty much as fast as you can pull the trigger. Practical rate of fire takes into account magazine changes, reallining sights and such. Now I don't know the exact cyclic rate of fire for the SVD, but I'll wager it'd be a good deal higher that 30.





Source





Source

So the Brand new American Helmets would. I doubt the current issue British MK6 (though this is in the process of being phased out for the MK6a) which is of a similar vintage to the old American PAGAST lid would hold up against them, and by extension I'd also question the ability of the MEC and PLA helmets to do the same.

Nice. When was that Russian bit written?

[Death_dx]

Interceptor body armor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Says 50% (give or take) for a 9 mm to go through.

All the discussion about what weapon damages should be is pretty moot, unless someone has any idea what type of body armor everyone is using.

[gclark03]

A good vest of Interceptor armor may have a 50% chance to stop a 9mm bullet, but a soldier's skull has none. Add to this the insane accuracy of the current pistols in PR, and you have a deadly weapon if used in knowledgeable and experienced hands.

[Masaq]

ALso add to the equation the fact that Wikipedia isn't actually a reliable source.

It's more of a MMORPG where players have to sneak a load of false facts into an imaginary online encyclopedia, whilst simultaniously trying to stop others from getting their false facts into it.

[SuperTimo]

as put to me by a member of the (insert name here) Guards.

5.56mm rounds are used by nato forces to Prevent killing the enemy.
by wounding them,other troops will try to save them wasting the enemy's manpower.

a 7.62mm round will usually kill. in which case your enemy will not attempt to move a dead body and will carry on fighting.