Snipers... useless?

[Artnez[US]]

*puts on flame suit*

Ok, let's start with a Wikipedia article. Yes, wikipedia isn't the best source, however it's still a very good one. I'm sure we can all agree with this quote from this source:

Sniper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Different countries have different military doctrines regarding snipers in military units, settings, and tactics. Generally, a sniper's primary function in warfare is to provide detailed reconnaissance from a concealed position and, if necessary, to reduce the enemy's fighting ability by striking at a small number of high value targets, especially officers.

The above is a pretty standard use for a sniper if I recall correctly. In PR it is impossible to recreate the usefulness of the sniper because:

A) High valued targets such as Officers (in PR's case: Commander and SL) can simply respawn within 60 seconds. It's also the same person respawning, so he'll let everyone know that he got killed by a sniper and where it came from.

The point of a high valued target is that it is irreplaceable. A standard foot soldier is considered replaceable, there's a lot more men that can do exactly what he can. An officer with 20 years in the service and 10 years of combat experience is a huge rarity.

If he's killed, a lot of confusion ensues and all of the people under him who are used to his way of doing paperwork and planning a battle need to get used to the new commander. Then new commander needs to be flown in, get a place to sleep, get some food, meet with his subordinates and get accustomed to the situation.

At the moment when a high valued target is taken out, that same high valued (talented player = high valued as well) is out to get you 60 seconds after.

B) Reconnaissance can be done by Spec Ops. There's no reason for the sniper to do it because the in-game ghillie suit offers no concealment at a distance.

Whenever we have a sniper in the squad and a good SL will ask him to not be sniper and help us attack/defend with a capable weapon, the sniper will usually switch over.

There are times though when the sniper argues that he's being useful. Getting 3 kills in 1 hour is not useful... even getting 10 kills isn't that useful. Those soldiers will simply respawn anyway and in a consistent firefight it's far easier to get 10 kills as a scoped rifleman or even iron sighted rifleman than a sniper.

I've read instances of someone killing someone across the map. What's the big deal about this? It happens extremely rarely and the enemy will simply respawn again. The only real usefulness of the sniper in-game at the moment is getting kills and 99.9% of snipers I have seen do not end the round with 50 kills... more like 3-7 kills.

If someone is a good sniper he'll but just as good as being a rifleman because the aiming is pretty much exactly the same. Only difference is that rifleman comes with more advantages to be dynamic on the battlefield.

I know everyone loves snipers - in real life these guys are some of the most elite soldiers in the world. But is that reason enough to have them around?

Getting a few random scattered kills isn't going to win a map. It's all about force strength and people working together. I'd rather have 2 shooters in my squad covering the south entrance to a compound than a lone sniper 300 meters away trying really hard to aim right.

So, to solve the sniper problem I propose one of the following:

Solution A
Remove the sniper altogether. It doesn't add anything to the battlefield (when was the last time a sniper TRULY harassed your team? be honest). Replace it with another SpecOps kit or something else that could be very useful (a different variation of the Engineer perhaps).

Solution B
Make snipers dead-on-accurate. It should be very easy to use a sniper rifle if it stays around for future version of PR. The point is to emulate the training that a sniper receives. There shouldn't be any snipers that can't aim worth a damn -- it's a sniper.

Just like we don't portray aiming an M16 correctly (holding the rifle correctly, breathing, etc) - we shouldn't ask sniper classes to do all sorts of things they are trained to do to the point of it being natural.

Give a sniper class the advantages that it deserves so that they can harass the other team properly. I'd like nothing more than to get pinned down by a sniper and have the challenge of figuring out a way to take him out. This never happens though because snipers aren't really capable of harassing anyone (unless it's a very very very RARE circumstance).

Thoughts? Please be constructive and answer on my points. No 1 sentence responses please, I've thought about this enough to finally post it

[BloodBane611]

Killing the commander means at least 30 seconds he cannot control his communications or orders on the main map, and unless he has a nearby bunker or firebase he's going to have to find transport to wherever he needs to be from his main base. Instituting a VOIP and text block for all dead players would definitely help with this. That way when a player gets taken down the sniper actually has a chance to move his position before being blasted by LMG fire and grenade launcher spam.

I think some more commander penalties would be a good way of rewarding snipers, as you say killing the commander now really isn't the blow it should be.

I think that once the deviation issues are fixed, snipers will become more of a force. If not, I think accuracy should be increased until they are. Squads should be afraid of snipers, because they should know that snipers can and will kill them with a round or two from long range. A sniper team with a reasonably accurate weapon should be able to hold up an enemy squad long enough to allow their team mates to fortify a flag, or to hold enemy troops off an open objective like the mine in quinling.

Anyhow, PR is mainly a ticket game. In light of this, I think the most effective tactic any sniper can take it simply to go for blood. There really are not enough officers to make killing them reasonably effective in any way, but if you can kill and SL and his entire squad as they try and move across open ground you're a serious force multiplier, because you've slowed their advance by 30+ seconds, and the enemy team is down 6 tickets.


I think snipers fit in PR, but some additional policies would make them a much more meaningful force, as they should be.

[DeltaFart]

That could be stepped up, you could have more ticket damage when say the CO dies, you get like the same amount of tickets lost as say a tank. A SL can be half that since there are more of them. THis could be made so that officers are leading from the front, but not rushing headlong across open terrain stupidly (ala Cpt WInters in Holland).
This prbably is the best idea I've seen this week so far!

[Expendable Grunt]

They're not totally useless in game, however the typical player who takes the kit is.

EDIT: The limited view distance (unnaturally limited, I've tested out 2KM view distance and had no issues) makes it more difficult to actually harass a unit.

[Rudd]

Grunt is right that the engine is not good for snipers

However try snipers after the patch, as bloodbane says they are getting their deviation fixed.

[ReaperMAC]

However try snipers after the patch, as bloodbane says they are getting their deviation fixed.

lulz

[Arnoldio_SLO]

snipers aren't totaly useless...i was in some sqad with sniper and spotter+four of us, infantry guys....sniper was a good support + spotter...so we had prettyy much easy job clearing the city

[Outlawz7]

Every time I see a sniper in-game, they always get too close and get taken out or use their rifle like a super close quarters weapon and get killed, or have so much tunnel vision I could park a tank next to them and they wouldn't notice. Most of them aren't used to the lack of 2D info from BF2 (minimap, spotting, commander UAV) and just stare at the spot, where they saw an enemy pass by, while an enemy squad flanks them. Or an APC/jeep kills them with the MG

I see no reason, why I'd need a sniper to kill an enemy SL; I can do that with everything else I have in the arsenal and due the view distance I could probably 'snipe' people with ironsights on some maps. Even if I do kill him, he will be just away for 30 seconds, although it does usually confuse the squad because they follow him like ducks 24/7.

[markonymous]

the other day i me and a clanmate decided to go sniping me spec ops him sniper so i told him ranges and confirmed kills and also reported positions all clear to commander. My clanmate got over 5 confirmed kills from 900m+. Then several more at a shorter distance i9t was both fun and useful oh and i almost forgot we laser designated several targets for our frogfoot to take out and since he was also in our clan he did kill them.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

80% of the people who use the sniper kit don't really know how to use it or simply grabbed it because it seemed cool, that's my experience. When someone actually uses it correctly ( Yes, they can harass a enemy squad, especially on Al Kulfra Field/ QinLing) it makes quite a noticeable difference. They can keep enemy's heads down, confuse them, and provide valuable reconnaissance... But that's only when people use it right.

How about we remove the Spec Ops Kit? They will never truly be represented unless there is another "faction" considering there really isn't a specific KIT that the special forces use, and the fact they are a group of motivated, specially trained and specially equipped soldiers... so you can't really summarize the special forces with a little kit. Besides, the spec ops kit is used the wrong way more often than sniper kits and even when used the right way, there is almost no noticeable difference.

[Expendable Grunt]

The best way to "use" the sniper kit in game is to completely forget about your kills.

Get somewhere near an enemy flag where they are defending, but not under attack.

Set up trip flares in obvious approaches.

Fire.

Leave. Let them spend their precious time trying to find you.

[kilroy0097]

I have personally seen two wonderful uses for a Sniper class. Although one was good only because the Marksman kit is incredibly bad IMO.

1. A Sniper when used to effectively cover and watch the advancement of their squad into their attack position of a CP. This is the role that the Marksman should carry. However since the Marksman guns are complete **** and a normal optical rifleman could do the same job just as effectively, the Sniper is wanted for the role. Give the Marksman a better zoom on their gun and then maybe it would be more effective.

2. On maps with large open portions of terrain that a Squad must cross to gain ground, a Sniper is invaluable. In the rare instances where the Sniper has both slight height and clear view across a large open area then a single skilled Sniper can and will suppress troop tactical movement and force them to differ their strategy.

I have only see a handfull of instances where a Sniper was actually harassing troops near a enemy bunker effectively forcing them into cover for an extended period of time. More often than not after the 2nd round of re-spawn that gig is up.

Those are basically it. Spec Ops can do all the other jobs that Sniper can do. Of course the gillysuit has always been an issue as to ineffectiveness with the BF2 engine.

[Artnez[US]]

Wow, you guys are really fighting for this sniper thing

@BloodBane
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That's right, 30 seconds of the commander not being in-game but think about how long it takes the sniper to actually find him, get to him, and not get killed. One hit on the commander and he'll notify everyone else in the base that someone is shooting at him.

30 seconds out of the game for the commander does nothing to stop the other team. In a 2 hour round, those 30 seconds are nothing. If it was real life and every second counted, then maybe - just maybe - 30 seconds would make a difference. But in the game, I've been on teams where the commander died over and over and over and we still dominated due to great teamwork and great commanding.

@Everyone Else
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It's that a sniper "can" get go out and "suppress" a squad. But frankly, I've never seen this happen. Maybe you guys have a different definition of what suppressing a squad really means because you want the sniper to be so great.

Sitting on a tower and killing a few enemies can be done by virtually any class with a scope. Getting 6 kills is kind of a joke for the whole round - especially considering those 6 kills were on squad members. If you're lucky, you hit a few squad leaders but they all respawned on their rally point anyway.

And if you're going to tell me you found a way to escape, I simply don't believe you. The maps are known so well by players and unless you're part of a larger attack... they will come right after you. If you are a part of a larger attack, you would get just as many kills (but more) if you were a rifleman, automatic rifleman or grenadier.

No one has yet to answer my concerns point by point. All that you guys are pointing out is that:

1) Snipers are good for killing
(no they're not, a good sniper will get ripped up by a good automatic rifleman. if you killed a few bad players this doesn't mean the class is great. think of all the hoops you had to jump through to get into position, whereas if you were with a squad that needed with good teamwork, you'd have 30 kills by the time you got your 6)

2) Snipers are good for spotting
SpecOps is better for this role because he can do other things. He can kill, destroy objects, and also spot. SpecOps is far more powerful than a sniper is. Unless a sniper catches you 200 meters away from high ground, in a desert, you can easily avoid being killed by a sniper.

3) Snipers are good for diversions
How long will the diversion last? There's only so far that you can run on a map. Eventually they will catch up to you or give up. Often times they won't even come after you because they have orders. Think about it this way... a good squad with teamwork who is following orders and is all about defending and attacking CPs will just drive right past you. Their objective is the flags!

-------

I just think everyone is associating a real life sniper's job vs. a PR sniper's job and trying really really really hard to find similarities so they can use the sniper.

If you're a good shot, you are way better off with a squad of infantry.

On every map there are 2 elements of players:
1) The guys that are attacking/defending flags.
2) The guys who are playing a role playing game scattered around the map.

The guys who are attacking and defending flags are the ones who are winning the battle. You need bodies on flags to win and that's what they do. They also get far more kills than any sniper will because they run into the enemy every few minutes.

So here's the main point:

Don't use examples of a sniper being useful because you can be just as useful when being part of an infantry squad and attacking a flag. It's impossible to useful as an infantryman (no matter what class) if you're sitting hundreds of meters away from the enemy. You're either in the fight or you're not.

Yes, you can blow bridges as SpecOps and be useful... but why not be engineer and blow the same bridges, help your squad, and also place some mines?

Yes you can shoot people as Sniper, but why not be automatic rifleman, grenadier or regular rifleman (w/ scope) and do the same thing while helping your team cap the flag? You'll get kills and kills are the end result so do it with a class that is useful in other ways as well.

[Tef]

I have been harrased by snipers on kufrah A good amount of times and I was like WTF where is he, still haven't found him.

Yeah I do thing snipers should be really accurate too, real snipers go through **** loads of training to be snipers so they should be dead accurate.

[RCMoonPie]

I agree with earlier posts in regard to making it easier to get kills. It wont be much of a factor unless it is properly employed.

I would also make it so it is easier if you have say another team-mate within a designated radius who is using his binos....he could spot targets for the sniper one at a time...Much like the laser target designator.
Maybe you could place a yellow box on target designated by this "spotter"....that would only show up to the spotter and the sniper. This would simulate the spotter/sniper team effectively in my opinion.
It would also maybe keep some snipers from joining a squad....getting the sniper kit.....and then quitting said squad.....since his skill, mortality, and score could be effected by having this spotter along side.

[gazzthompson]

snipers suck, i love fighting against them they stand out sooo easy because of the bf2 engine then i just headshot him with my assault rifle...

[jayceon515]

IMO sniper kit should be removed. 99% of people who get the kit don't use it correctly. Sniper used to be "god" before scoped rifles were introduced in 0.6. From that point on everyone can be some sort of a sniper so it loses its value. If I see a sniper in my squad I always ask him to request a different kit or leave the squad, if not I always kick him. Marksman can be far more useful and it's not even that hard to use it correctly all you have to do is to stick with your squad and deal with targets that are further away.
Only insurgent snipers still have that "magic" power to make you feel very uncomfortable while entering an insurgent held city but that's a different story.

[Expendable Grunt]

I still think the issue lies in the view distances being capped by the mapper to short levels.

2k view distance Basrah allows you to shoot into village from the oil refinery. Think about that one