Snipers... useless?

[Pariel]

I think the problems that we've shown reflect not the sniper class, but the failures of the system.

The reason snipers can't pin squads is because people in PR don't value being alive--they can just respawn in a few seconds, and go somewhere the sniper can't see.

The view distance on almost every map, except the ones that are mainly vehicles (Al Kufrah, Kashan), isn't high enough that having a sniper rifle actually gives you an advantage.

The fact that certain terrain features don't render at distance (as well as the sniper's own ghillie) means that often a sniper can be seen even when he believes himself to be in a well concealed location.

I have seen the sniper used at least as effectively as any other kit in the game, but it's easier to notice when two retarded people are constantly using the sniper kits, than if two people are just using rifleman kits. Same goes for spec-ops.

On a related note, I think there's a serious need to increase the zoom distance slightly on the designated marksmans' rifles. Having the same zoom as the optic rifleman just means they're carrying a standard rifle with more power, rather than actually providing a support weapon to the squad.

[Celica`]

the other day i me and a clanmate decided to go sniping me spec ops him sniper so i told him ranges and confirmed kills and also reported positions all clear to commander. My clanmate got over 5 confirmed kills from 900m+. Then several more at a shorter distance i9t was both fun and useful oh and i almost forgot we laser designated several targets for our frogfoot to take out and since he was also in our clan he did kill them.

That was meee!

[Artnez[US]]

Right... so the point is that at best snipers can be as effective as regular infantry. If you're good enough a shot to understand concealment and cover as a sniper, you're good enough to do it as a regular infantryman with a scope.

So you got 5 kills... that's it? Is it worth 2 infantry man off the field on the side? That's simply half a squad. 30 seconds later those same guys are running in the same direction because they respawned on their rally.

Either remove the sniper, or make the sniper extremely accurate - whereby every single shot is right on target at very large distances.

[Pariel]

Please re-read my post.

The comment on those ideas.

Thank you.

[Expendable Grunt]

On a related note, I think there's a serious need to increase the zoom distance slightly on the designated marksmans' rifles. Having the same zoom as the optic rifleman just means they're carrying a standard rifle with more power, rather than actually providing a support weapon to the squad.

M14 has a 14x IIRC, and the others have 8x. Could be wrong though, I'm never marksman.

[Pariel]

I believe the APCs have 10x, the tanks have 10x and ??x zoom, the optic rifles have 4x, and IIRC, the M14 looks exactly the same ingame. I think the sniper has 4x and 10x, but I'm not too sure on that.

Someone who actually knows may have to correct me.

Either way, the way to fix this is to not to make it an uber class, its to remove the nerfing on the entire game.

[Artnez[US]]

I think the problems that we've shown reflect not the sniper class, but the failures of the system.

You can't build the system around the sniper class, especially considering that the BF2 engine is limited. What I'm talking about is either removing the sniper class (because it doesn't fit into the limitations of the BF2 engine) or upgrade the sniper class to simulate the power of a sniper.

The reason snipers can't pin squads is because people in PR don't value being alive--they can just respawn in a few seconds, and go somewhere the sniper can't see.

Exactly. If the snipers could shoot from extreme distances in urban areas then it wouldn't matter if they could spot the sniper and respawn because it would take them so long to get there that the sniper would move or kill them again.

Increasing the view distance to such a level in urban areas is impossible because it would lag tremendously on the majority of our computers. BF2 engine wasn't to handle such view distance.

The large view distance on Kashan, for example, doesn't help because there's no cover in the desert.

The view distance on almost every map, except the ones that are mainly vehicles (Al Kufrah, Kashan), isn't high enough that having a sniper rifle actually gives you an advantage.

Yep.

The fact that certain terrain features don't render at distance (as well as the sniper's own ghillie) means that often a sniper can be seen even when he believes himself to be in a well concealed location.

Yep.

I have seen the sniper used at least as effectively as any other kit in the game, but it's easier to notice when two retarded people are constantly using the sniper kits, than if two people are just using rifleman kits. Same goes for spec-ops.

Yep.

On a related note, I think there's a serious need to increase the zoom distance slightly on the designated marksmans' rifles. Having the same zoom as the optic rifleman just means they're carrying a standard rifle with more power, rather than actually providing a support weapon to the squad.

Agree. More accuracy would also be preferable.

[terenz]

I see snipers effective if they were able to conceal themselves more. Atleast thats what i experience when im a sniper. I believe im one of those who can use the kit, but always have a hard time keeping unspotted, then have to relocate all the time, where i should be able to hide better. So all of this is true, snipers in this engine arent as useful as they should be. Though i would miss the sniper a whole lot, eventho the kit is expendable.

The most use of ever seen of a sniper was last week. We were 5 guys in a squad in Sunset City, defending Prossessing Facility. We had a transport chopper flying 2snipers and 1 marksman from roof to roof, whenever we needed. Then had the chopper spot out people with a 50cal guy in it. We held off 3 enemy squads from the facitily for an hour or two, without any larger casualies. We also stood back and watched enemy APCs and cars moving in, providing very good info for those to be taken out. Ending up with 9000 squad points. Looking at this, we didnt act as a sniper should, but rather a marksman. So you would yet again ask yourself, should you call it a sniper?

Despite all the flaws of the sniper, i still see it as a kit that can provide very useful info, but then again, so can the spec ops.

another solution that i didnt see in previous posts:
Removing marksman kit and upgrading sniper to marksman, changing a few small things.

[nedlands1]

M14 has a 14x IIRC, and the others have 8x. Could be wrong though, I'm never marksman.

L86 LSW: 4x IG, 4x IRL (SUSAT)

M14: 8.33..x IG, Various IRL

SVD: 4x IG, 4x IRL (PSO-1)

QBU-88: 4x IG, 4x IRL

[Expendable Grunt]

L86 LSW: 4x IG, 4x IRL (SUSAT)

M14: 8.33..x IG, Various IRL

SVD: 4x IG, 4x IRL (PSO-1)

QBU-88: 4x IG, 4x IRL

Thanks. No idea where I got "14" from I was thinking 8. (double)

[Antonious_Bloc]

;617173']Wow, you guys are really fighting for this sniper thing


1) Snipers are good for killing
(no they're not, a good sniper will get ripped up by a good automatic rifleman. if you killed a few bad players this doesn't mean the class is great. think of all the hoops you had to jump through to get into position, whereas if you were with a squad that needed with good teamwork, you'd have 30 kills by the time you got your 6)

How can an automatic rifleman hit you, let alone see you, from 600+ meters? Snipers have a 10x zoom. Do the snipers you're used to fire from 100m away?

3) Snipers are good for diversions
How long will the diversion last? There's only so far that you can run on a map. Eventually they will catch up to you or give up. Often times they won't even come after you because they have orders. Think about it this way... a good squad with teamwork who is following orders and is all about defending and attacking CPs will just drive right past you. Their objective is the flags!

Yes you can shoot people as Sniper, but why not be automatic rifleman, grenadier or regular rifleman (w/ scope) and do the same thing while helping your team cap the flag? You'll get kills and kills are the end result so do it with a class that is useful in other ways as well.

If you have a sniper watching over a CP from 500-700m away, he can effectively stop them from capping the base, or if the squad lacks transport, he can keep them stuck there. Without armor, you can make it helluva difficult to cap a base or move from it.

You said before that infantry will just run up and kill you once they respawn. How will they be able to run up and kill you from that distance? Is the sniper asleep? He's a pretty bad shot if he can't hit guys running straight towards him for 600m.

[joselucca]

another solution that i didnt see in previous posts:
Removing marksman kit and upgrading sniper to marksman, changing a few small things.

Agreed x2
If you changed the name to Designated Marksman and tweaked the kit a bit (adjusted zoom, a variety of rifles depending on the map, loadout, etc), it may resolve some of the issues brought up by the OP. But if the devs were to get rid of the sniper kit, i wouldn't shed a tear. As many others have suggested, the rifleman(optic) can do the same job, sure not from as along a distance as the sniper, but how many maps in the PR universe allow for such long distance shots anyhow?
Designated Marksman....problem solved!

[Wasteland]

Snipers can perform two essential functions in PR.

Attack and defense.

On the attack, they can take out HMGunners or other defenders. By softening the defense they make it easier for the assaulting squad to take the flag during the minute or so it takes for the killed person to respawn and get back to the flag.

On the defense, they're effective area denial. They can keep an enemy from safely and quickly assaulting the flag long enough for reinforcements to get to the flag under attack.

[Pariel]

;617595']You can't build the system around the sniper class, especially considering that the BF2 engine is limited. What I'm talking about is either removing the sniper class (because it doesn't fit into the limitations of the BF2 engine) or upgrade the sniper class to simulate the power of a sniper.

Exactly. If the snipers could shoot from extreme distances in urban areas then it wouldn't matter if they could spot the sniper and respawn because it would take them so long to get there that the sniper would move or kill them again.

Increasing the view distance to such a level in urban areas is impossible because it would lag tremendously on the majority of our computers. BF2 engine wasn't to handle such view distance.

The large view distance on Kashan, for example, doesn't help because there's no cover in the desert.

I agree the sniper class is nerfed, but the point is that it's not the only class that suffers from the low view distances and fact that people aren't afraid to get killed.

But the way to fix those isn't to make the sniper perfectly accurate, it's to fix those problems.

Similarly, snipers perform valuable functions in organized teams, spotting and giving squads the ability to engage at a longer distance. They rarely make a huge difference in the overall ticket loss, but any good team can use them as marksmen within squads to increase their firepower and destroy enemy squads. I've seen this used very well on Qwai River.

I don't think the probably is nearly as big as you make it out to be, either. At worst there's two noobs running around with the sniper kit. So what? It's annoying, yes, but it seems to happen everytime I play Al Basrah, and I've gotten over it every time.

[Expendable Grunt]

Agreed x2
If you changed the name to Designated Marksman and tweaked the kit a bit (adjusted zoom, a variety of rifles depending on the map, loadout, etc), it may resolve some of the issues brought up by the OP. But if the devs were to get rid of the sniper kit, i wouldn't shed a tear. As many others have suggested, the rifleman(optic) can do the same job, sure not from as along a distance as the sniper, but how many maps in the PR universe allow for such long distance shots anyhow?
Designated Marksman....problem solved!

Sniper != Designated Marksman
Designated Marksman != Sniper

[Wolfe]

Name ONE thing a sniper can do that another scoped class is unable to do in BF.

There isn't one.

In fact, all scoped classes and even some non-scoped classes can perform just as good and with better all-round capabilities than a sniper. At best, a really good sniper only slightly edges out scoped rifles in accuracy but it's a poor trade-off considering that snipers have no other unique special function.

Snipers... useless? No, but every other option is better.

[Antonious_Bloc]

Name ONE thing a sniper can do that another scoped class is unable to do in BF.

Take out a H-AT from 800 meters away.

[Antonious_Bloc]

Well yes, but it's not limited to H-AT... though it seems that H-AT and AA Rifleman are the only targets that are actually worth having snipers around to counter.

And of course, the guys manning the AA gun of doom.