Recoil Vs Muzzle Climb

[DeltaFart]

I think people need to realize what the difference is.
Recoil is the backward force of the firearm, when fired, that is the equal and opposite reaction, meaning the forces propelling the bullet out of the rifle, has an equal and opposite amount of force going in reverse to the shooter. The bigger the round, or the faster it goes the more it gets.
Ex: 9mm luger vs .45 ACP: The luger is very fast, but very light, resulting in a round that penetrates more, but it doesn't dump its forces as much because it is very light and keeps going. The 45 is very slow (relative to the luger) but very heavy, causing more damage fromt he round tumbling on impact in the body. The best way to make the luger have the same force imparting properties to a 45, is to give it a hollow point round, whihc by the law of war, is illegal.
Muzzle climb on the other hand is a lever force, caused by the recoil forces acting on the stock. This is why the Thompson SMG was notorious for climbing, becuase the stock of the SMG was so low, to raise the sights to the shooter, the forces were causing the muzzle to climb more. The M16 on the other hand, has a straight profile, from muzzle to buttplate, cuasing the recoil forces to go straight back into the shooter. This is also handled by a heavier barrel(cause the barrel to be harder to control) or a heavier gun overall (ala PKM).
Ex:M1 Garand vs M16A2: The garand has a curved stock, lower than the muzzle, causing the grip to act like a fulcrum for the forces, and the muzzle being one end of the lever, with the forces pushing on it, and the butt being the other end. This setup causes the muzzle to climb. The m16 has a straight line from the butt to the muzzle, eliminating the fulcrum in the middle, thus drastically reducing the muzzle climb.

Note there is no math equations in this, because this is the translation of what happens by a 16 year old shooter. I hope this clears up any mix ups.

[BloodBane611]

Recoil is felt in your shoulder, muzzle climb is seen at the muzzle. I didn't think this was something challenging, but I guess it is?

[Spec]

Which is also the reason for the lower "recoil" for scoped rifles than for those with ironsights. Its not a lower recoil, its just balance, because only muzzle climb can be simulated and realistic muzzle climb is too much for scoped rifles, and seems unrealistic again.

I think.

[DeltaFart]

THis wasn't for the people who know what the topics are, and how the engine runs, this is for the people who see all these threads, adn wonder what the discussion is about

[nedlands1]

Recoil cannot be done with the engine. period.

Its effects can only be simulated by changing muzzle climb.

Eh??? The visual effects of the rifle moving towards your shoulder looks very much like recoil to me! My cannon along with my tank moving back after I fire my main cannon also looks like recoil.

[Hardtman]

One rather stupid question here:

Is the movement upwards caused somehow by the weapon itself, or is it effected by the upper body tilting backwards at the hip?
I always assumed the latter, but I want to be sure.

[nedlands1]

does it push you back a little? no.
does it make it difficult to shoot more with a higher recoil? no.

its not recoil, its a nice little graphic effect, but its a fundamentally different kind of thing with few if any of the same kind of effects.

You can make it push you back. See tanks.

[Hardtman]

The joints/muscles of the human body are strong enough to minimise any deformation at the hip, the force would be absorbed by the arm muscles mostly.

In BF2 however it is the back (i think) that is bending, or whatever the only joint you see moving when people look up/down.

Any movement though is caused by the recoil of the weapon, which initially is JUST backwards, meaning any subsequent tilting is somehow due to the body (possibly the position of your hands).

Ah, alright. Thanks a lot .