Scope Lines

Psyko · Post by **Psyko** » 2008-03-04 05:51

Hi.

I'd just like to ask the DEVS if there is any word on, If the sniper rifle scopes will be improved with regards to the distance markings being accurate.

(Not the deviation... The black lines in the scope!)

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-03-04 05:55

From what I understand, nedland and johnny[sorry for probable spelling] are working on a more realistic bullet drop, which, if I understand correctly, they later intend to make the optics fit with this.

But, this is all in various stages of being done, being near done, and being looked into. Last I heard from..Johhny? the calculations were done, but there was something else they were working on in relation to it...

So in a few words, maybe eventually, but I think the first step would be getting the realistic bullet drop in place, then working on getting all the sights set up to be accurately portraying the ticks or whatever they are called

Post by **Jaymz** » 2008-03-04 05:56

Bullets in the BF2 engine travel in a rather linear fashion unlike in RL so it's not really possible until that is changed...

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-03-04 07:09

I always get this mixed up when trying to explain it, but I think they either go out to a certain point and then begin to drop down at an angle, or they immediately begin a downward angle, but its not a curve as seen by increasing in acceleration[thats for sure] Something like that... they in some way drop, buts its more of just being angled down [whether right off the bat or after their zeroed range, I forget]

someone will be here shortly to correct me though

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2008-03-04 07:45

Okay, bullets follow paths as though they were in a vacuum currently. That is to say, gravity plays a part and drag doesn't. Jonny has found out how to introduce drag into this. You can calculate a bullets path (disregarding random deviation and not including drag) in BF2 using simple constant acceleration equations (ie s = ut + 1/2at^2 where s is the displacement in metres, u is the starting velocity (muzzle velocity) in metres per second, t is time in seconds and a is the acceleration (due to gravity) in metres per second squared). You can even introduce angles (ie sin 2θ = -(as)/u^2, where θ is the angle). I use the latter one as a starting point to zero weapons which are zeroed quite close (as both the effects of drag and height of the sight above the barrel aren't so influential).

Having cleared that up, sights shouldn't be redone until the ballistics are finalised for weapons that utilise bullet drop compensators (eg M16A4 w/ ACOG, M95/M82A1 and SVD(if even possible/allowed)). Doing the sights twice (once now and once when the ballistics are done) means twice the work. Other sights with mil dots (ie most sniper rifle scopes) could be redone I suppose. What would need to be done (assuming that it hasn't been done already) is the dots being spaced accordingly.

Razick · Post by **Razick** » 2008-03-04 08:12

Uh......What he said!^^

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2008-03-04 14:17

Jonny wrote:=@ everyone else:
I have easy acess to two skinners now, so once I have time to figure out how the zoom modifer works I can start re-skinning the scopes.

Alternatively we can zero them right now, using zangoos method. But I have been told that it leads to wierd 3p effects.

What do you mean with regards to the zoom modifier and weird 3rd person effects?

Psyko · Post by **Psyko** » 2008-03-04 17:05

so basically the answer is... "Yea, soon, we're working on it."

and my answer to that is...

"YAAAY!!!"

(insurgents should have 50cal.)

Post by **Vaiski** » 2008-03-04 17:09

Jonny wrote:
@ everyone else:
I have easy acess to two skinners now, so once I have time to figure out how the zoom modifer works I can start re-skinning the scopes.

I haven’t really followed the earlier discussion but are you planning to move the scope sights just by adjusting the textures?
I tried to do the same long time ago. It sounded simple enough to just move the texture down by couple of pixels and then go test it in game.
The problem is that most of the vanilla and some of the PR scopes are UV mapped 3d models. It’s very difficult if not impossible to move scope picture just by altering the textures.
I’m not a coder but AFAIK if you want to move a 3d scope you will need the original 3ds files of the whole weapon. After moving the scope you’ll have to re-export the weapon all over again. Obviously there are no legal ways to get original files of the vanilla weapons.

Some of the PR scopes are just a simple textures on the screen (type 95 for example). Those are easy to adjust as you like. Rest of the scopes will be pain in the arse.

zangoo · Post by **zangoo** » 2008-03-04 20:25

the weird effect is when you make the bullet come out of a barrel on a gun. you can change the hight and angle of the barrel, so it allows you to zero a gun. but the 3p and 1p weapon placement is diffrent. so if the gun is zeroed to 600m for 1p, the shooter will see the bullet rise then fall and hit the target just like it would in real life. but anyone watching would see the bullet shoot up at a angle and go off to the side of where the shooter was aiming. so to make this way work you would need to get the weapon to be in the same place for 1p and 3p, but as far as i know that would take way too long

Smegburt_funkledink · Post by **Smegburt_funkledink** » 2008-03-04 21:06

Jonny, you say you've got the help of a couple skinners but I'd like to offer help incase thery're busy working on other things or if I can help things move along.

I have no idea how meshes or polygons are put together in BF and I don't know whow to add textures to them. I do, however know how to edit, modify, manipulate, bastardise and completely re-design any kind of 2d imagery. I've been in the graphics industry a while and can pretty much photoshop/illustrate anyhting.

Let me know if I can help at all, sorry if my skills aren't what you're looking for.

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2008-03-04 22:13

I say screw the 3rd person issue. Who cares what a round looks like as it flies...you can't see them anyways aside from tracers. I say thats a VERY acceptable side effect. Ballistics are SORELY needed in this game and I commend you guys for getting it done, amazing work. Though I haven't seen it in action, just your posts. Hey Johnny I know there have been a couple of talented guys with good input that just didn't have the social graces to be a team player and thus weren't included on the team. What you guys have done is $$ so lets try to chill so we lesser players have the fun of actually getting it in-game.

No disrespect, I'm just a fan of the upcoming ballistics and I'm sure they will be included. IMO it'd be a travesty to not get them in the patch, especially since you seemed to have done a lot of testing.

zangoo · Post by **zangoo** » 2008-03-04 22:25

no it doesnt work as in, it will only work on your end, the server will think that the round landed 20m to the left, so you will never hit anything.

Post by **Vaiski** » 2008-03-04 23:36

Jonny wrote:Smeg, we need to know how easy it is to edit the sniper/marksman rifles, they will be the most obvious changes so it makes sense doing them first. If you can do that quicker than a DEV can respond then I can start calculating some line positions.

I was trying to explain with my previous post that moving those lines is almost impossible (with just photoshopping textures that is). Most of the reticules are 3d objects just like the weapons themselves.
Unfortunately you can’t easily move them without the original 3d files.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2008-03-05 02:46

Jonny wrote:The zoom modifier changes the angle hown on screen, and I am not about to go guessing things after all the time spent writing spreadsheets and gathring information for zeroing.

The 3p effects are the round landing somewhere else for a different person, as said by zangoo.

I haven't seen this change of angle and I've been using 1-100x variable zoom scopes in-game. As for the 3P effects, I believe the same thing happens between the tank driver/gunner. It must be an inherent problem with relocated barrels. The thing, with these barrels you can position and orientate, is that you can accurately copy the real-life distance between scope and barrel. With the texture method you'd have fun trying and you wouldn't be able to change the angle, just the height.

An example. The G3A3 with its 4x telescopic sight has the line of sight positioned 87.5mm above the axis of the barrel (source: http://www.drzero.org/cetme/pdf/g3sm.pdf (pg 7)). I found that the centre of the sight on the model is 0.075m above the origin so the barrel should be positioned at 0/-0.0125/0. It turns out that the origin is positioned in-line with the barrel so there is no need to tweak the other position values (as in the case of the M16A4 with ACOG). You could move the barrel backwards so it is in-line with the crosshair if you wanted to as well. It also turns out that the Z axis of the origin isn't perpendicular to the scope/weapon model. This means the further away you are from the target the more the weapon will fire off to the side. This can be rectified by changing the first value of the barrel's rotation. Once this is all complete the ballistics need to be tweaked. After that the weapon is ripe for some zeroing.

A thing to note. Tracers seem to drop more than conventional rounds no matter what the gravity is set to.

zangoo · Post by **zangoo** » 2008-03-05 03:16

how could a tracer drop more then another round, it is just a effect on the bullet.