Remove bunkers?

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2008-03-11 16:59

So here's another drastic idea: remove the bunkers and increase limit on firebases.

Why?
Currently the bunker provides the quickest way to spawn back at the CP you are defending/using as staging point. The places where you can deploy them are usually well concealed and protected while firebases usually need some sandbags

However, once the enemy overruns the CP/surrounds it, they usually resolve to nade spam/sniping. You usually spawn outside the bunker, so you are a great target for one of the random grenades flying in. The spawn killing keeps on and on until the bunker is finally blown apart. During that time, the team spawning on a bunker loses a lot of tickets, because they keep dying and contributing nothing to their team.

Another issue is when you try to capture an objective - you do not clear it of all the hidden and not hidden enemies and traps; you "capture" it once you destroy their bunker, so they stop spawn flooding the area.

In built up areas like Government Office/Estate on Qwai, attacking side usually has to resolve to the use of JDAM to blow the **** out of the defenders and the bunker, so they can actually capture it.

Another issue is when the enemy has a thick defense line; when you kill the first ones and proceed up penetrating the line, those first ones magically appear out of the bunker and by the time you reach the objective, they're back to kill you and your effort is meaningless.

So, if bunkers were to be removed, the defending party would have to set up firebases near the objective to spawn from.

If the firebase is discovered, the defending party has to dig in ala "last man standing", but if it isn't, they can respawn and regroup to reinforce the CP or flank the enemy.

Think of it as a castle siege; as long as you don't cut off their supply lines and starve them to death, there's no way you'll be able to get it.
And if you break into the castle there's no way for the enemy to just jump out of baskets all of a sudden and kill you.

Another sub-idea would be to use the current bunker model as a firebase, so players have some protection from any smacktards that just camp them to rank up their kills, but without RP noise so if smart enough you can hide them well.
The current firebase model should get some QBB/RPK/M249s thrown on it and could server as an actual deployable FIRE BASE, which you could build on hilltops and such to put down suppressive fire on an area. It should still give ammo, not unlimited, but still a lot (ie. temporary munition dump role). And in case you got lost; no it would not have a spawn.

Discuss

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » 2008-03-11 17:21

I like the analogy of a castle. It's a good idea that'd make things alot more realistic and less annoying. Also love the idea of a firebase actually becoming a fire base. I'd have the current firebase spawn along with two sand bags either side so it could actually be used to set up a position from which effective fire can be given.

Post by **Masaq** » 2008-03-11 17:30

I don't know what to make of this - I think I'd need to see it in-game before I could decide.

I'd say the problem is largely player-based though. First thing anyone should do when they see a bunker is get someone to grab an AT kit and nuke it, or C4-charge it.

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2008-03-11 17:38

[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:I don't know what to make of this - I think I'd need to see it in-game before I could decide.

I'd say the problem is largely player-based though. First thing anyone should do when they see a bunker is get someone to grab an AT kit and nuke it, or C4-charge it.

That's kinda hard to do, if the bunker is defended -> the paragraph about "thick defense line"

You could Heavy AT it, but again, bunkers can be in built up areas, where even armor can't take them out sometimes -> also said.

Also, let me just rephrase the naming a bit - bunkers should still stay as bunkers and be named bunkers, you just wouldn't be able to deploy them inside flag radius and fire bases would get their spawn removed and would become actual fire bases.

Post by **LeadMagnet** » 2008-03-11 18:06

I have no problem with the current system. It's not hard to take out a bunker if you actually use (what's that word....) teamwork. Send in an engineer or specops with cover and you can drop that bunker faster than a teen can drop trou at the prom.

Smegburt_funkledink · Post by **Smegburt_funkledink** » 2008-03-11 19:07

The only thing that made any sence to me was your castle analogy, Outlawz.

Outlawz wrote:Think of it as a castle siege; as long as you don't cut off their supply lines and starve them to death, there's no way you'll be able to get it.
And if you break into the castle there's no way for the enemy to just jump out of baskets all of a sudden and kill you.

All the other problems such as being spawn killed by a team attacking your Flunker [Flag Bunker] are to be expected if your under attack. Imagine a supprise attack on your barracks, people would get shot to shit as they left the building [spawned]. Anyone with any sence spawns elsewhere to start a counter attack but as we know, noobs cant be python coded, this is another HC issue.

I'd prefer it if all spawning occured indoors, but hey... I love RP's. But yeah, I do agree that in order to secure and hold a "flag" you should have to travel there to do so and dig in. You need to value your life so you can do that job. If you can just respawn on the flag your trying to hold, there's no life value.

Having to resort to using a JDAM? Awesome! It should be difficult to break through and take a Flunker.

Expendable Grunt · Post by **Expendable Grunt** » 2008-03-11 21:58

I'd like to keep it, but maybe remove the spawning ability.

Teek · Post by **Teek** » 2008-03-11 22:09

We need indirect fire support. Like arty or Mortars that can destroy a bunker after 1-2 mins of shelling.

DeltaFart · Post by **DeltaFart** » 2008-03-11 22:32

I like the idea, makes more sense

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-03-11 22:32

I think the current system is fine. You just have to realize that continually spawning at a bunker near an occupied flag is dumb. You WILL die, and your team will lose tickets. Instead, realize that by NOT spawning their you lose nothing, have the chance to regroup, and don't lost tickets for your team. Continually spawning at an overrun spawnpoint is a vBF2 tactic, it shouldn't be a PR one.

Psyko · Post by **Psyko** » 2008-03-11 22:52

bunkers and firebases or okay in my book, except for the bunker's lack of strength. if you want to improve the situation, there should be (if ANYTHING) static weapons that are deployable in the same way. so far we got AA guns. and nothing else. whats wrong with having a couple of TOWs or some very strong sandbags with an MG on them?

Expendable Grunt · Post by **Expendable Grunt** » 2008-03-11 22:56

Psykogundam wrote:bunkers and firebases or okay in my book, except for the bunker's lack of strength. if you want to improve the situation, there should be (if ANYTHING) static weapons that are deployable in the same way. so far we got AA guns. and nothing else. whats wrong with having a couple of TOWs or some very strong sandbags with an MG on them?

Apparently when the sandbag dies, the gun floats in mid air.

Post by **Mongolian_dude** » 2008-03-11 23:16

No, I think Bunkers should stay.

The bunkers and FBs are a good way of increasing the amount of personnel to a conflict area, while allowing the largest of maps.

Because players cant spawn on the flag, defending would be almost useless, unless done superbly conservatively; it wouldn't represent two large forces, more like a squad against an attacking army.

...mongol...

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2008-03-12 17:59

If anything it makes more sense to have Bunkers but not Firebases, (I'm not gonna suggest that for a second just for the record

) Bunkers represent a CP being fortified as it would be given the opportunity and then becoming part of the supply chain. It'd be much better if we ccould get some static MGs and TOWs and such down but I'm sure their on the DEVs list of stuff to do.

Firebases are a forward emplacement where troops come out of nowhere, where as you can suspend your disbelief to an extent with a Bunker cos they would be part of a supply chain.

Would people be happier if we put a "spawn at your own risk" sign on the bunkers?

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2008-03-12 18:08

Don't get me wrong, I do like the Flunkers, but I was thinking what would happen, if each CP did not have pile of sandbags giving birth to new soldiers every few moments and you could actually cut off reinforcements (respawning players) and surround the CP.

As I said, it's a radical suggestion and I wanted to read what others think about it.

It just came to me after I played PR and the team kept spawning on the Flunker after the enemy took out all the RPs and the firebase, because people aren't smart enough to keep an overwatch/flank something and they just piled up on the flag and kept getting killed, since you can't really defend yourself with some static objects and a sandbag, when the enemy has you surrounded completely.

Another player problem I guess.

Would people be happier if we put a "spawn at your own risk" sign on the bunkers?

Might be a useful easter egg besides the DieHard batteries and that toy company logo on radios

AnRK · Post by **AnRK** » 2008-03-12 19:01

Aren't CPs where an army would concentrate their supplies and re-enforcements in the first place though? So spawning on the flag seems fine to me. It still takes time to get a supply truck over and build a bunker, especially in a heated area, it's a very far cry from Vanilla so I don't see the problem.

Smegburt_funkledink · Post by **Smegburt_funkledink** » 2008-03-12 19:27

AnRK wrote:Aren't CPs where an army would concentrate their supplies and re-enforcements in the first place though? So spawning on the flag seems fine to me. It still takes time to get a supply truck over and build a bunker, especially in a heated area, it's a very far cry from Vanilla so I don't see the problem.

The problem is this, I know you all see it but I'll try to make it simple.

Team A - 1 squad builds bunker at flag, 6 people max. Flunker is born.

Team B - 20 or so people attack flunker, killing 6 people,
At the same time Team B have cut off Team A's supply routes and surrounded the flunker.

Team A - Spawns on bunker.

Team B - Need to now kill up to 32 people to re-take flunker.

Team A - "Yay!"

Team B - "WTF?"

'Tis very vanilla ish when that occurs whilst your taking a flag. You find yourself flinching around looking in corners you've checked, waiting for someone to spawn there. It's not quite as extreme as a flunker but similar things can happen.

If Team A could only spawn when there's no enemy within a certain radius of it, that might help..?..