SMG for unscoped rifleman

[Waaah_Wah]

Since iron sights dont really give you any big advantage in CQC (G3 still has massive recoil, M16A4 is only burst, etc), cant we get SMG's for the unscoped rifleman? This might be really useful for urban maps where its lots of CQC going on.

Discuss

EDIT: A carabine would probably better

[nedlands1]

Realistic?

[PantlessMidget]

I dont think thats realistic, in todays urban combat you typically dont see alot of CQB because of the larger caliber of the opposition and because of the insuregnts knowledge of the land. Use the scopes to your advantage, stand off, and try to stay away from close-quarters combat because the weapons issued are inadequate.

[Thermis]

The United States Army does not issue any SMG to soldiers. Short of Special Forces it's all M4s, which are not fully automatic. So no its not realistic. However I did see a soldier in Iraq who had acquired a Sten MkII don't remember how but he used it.
The point of CQB is not to put thousands of rounds down range, thats what you do in the open. CQB you should put very few rounds very accurately into the enemy.
Burst is fine for CQB if you have any skill. If you have a full Auto weapon you're at the spray and pray point of things.
I would like to see a CQB training map. Like a shoot house, so players new to PR can practice.

[Maxfragg]

today forces use mostly short carabines for CQB.
The US forces for example use the CQBR M-4, which is basicly a new version of the commando (M4A1 with 10.3 in barrel), which is afaik only used by SEALS

[Expendable Grunt]

Only an idiot would really take a weapon firing pistol bullets over rifle bullets I'd think.

[Maxfragg]

not really correct, if you are fighting inside a building, i would choose an SMG over a carabine rifle, because riflebullets tent to bumb around in the whole room, and there is a serious danger, that you are getting hit by your own bullet, thats why most police special forces use SMGs and not carabines. (okay, the swats in USA do, but since the most houses in US are made of wood and not of brick, this danger isn't that big in the US

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Well most armies that used battle rifles, that fired 7.62mm rounds, still heavily equipped their soldiers with 9mm SMGs aswell. This is becuase such rifles were generally pretty heavy and big, making the weapon unsuitable for roles were space was limited and the high and long range of the weapon were not necessary. Therefore alot were issued to support troops (truck drivers, airfield guards ext.), however if their front line soldiers were faced with alot of close quarters combat, it would be both possible and quite easy to issue a large number of 9mm SMGs to them.

Realistic?

Therefore issuing an SMG to any class in PR, would be realistic to the extent that the armies main rifle fire a 7.62mm or similar round. The only army in PR that fits this requirement is the MEC, therefore, as conclusions in past threads have made, it would be realistic to equip a small number of very frontline MEC kits with an SMG on maps where the majority of combat is at close range .

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

okay, the swats in USA do, but since the most houses in US are made of wood and not of brick, this danger isn't that big in the US

Yes, but carabine bullet can penetrate that wall and hurt someone innocent outside the building... I think that's the second reason why they use SMGs

[Maxfragg]

Yes, but carabine bullet can penetrate that wall and hurt someone innocent outside the building... I think that's the second reason why they use SMGs

sure that the police cares about that ?

[nedlands1]

Well most armies that used battle rifles, that fired 7.62mm rounds, still heavily equipped their soldiers with 9mm SMGs aswell.

To my knowledge that only applies in the case of battle rifles that were only semi-automatic or bolt-action, such as the battle rifles typically used in WWII. The subsequent generations of fully-automatic battle rifles, such as the M14, tended to fill the role of both the semi-automatic battle rifle and the SMG.

[Rudd]

Yes, but carabine bullet can penetrate that wall and hurt someone innocent outside the building... I think that's the second reason why they use SMGs

I've always worried about som1 having a firefight in an airport like heathrow in the UK, for the reason that all the walls are either glass partitions or thin looking walls.

Some1 should have told them to use the BF2 engine that doesn't support bullet penetration hehe.

[agentscar]

This doesn't make sense at all...Someone please close this...

[Spec]

I created a thread about this already.

BUT ONLY FOR THE MEC

Because their rifle can basicly only be used semi-automatic.

[Scot]

When you say CQC you mean Close Quarter Combat im guessing. This is different though to FIBUA(Fighting In Built Up Areas)/OBUA(Operations in Built Up Areas/FISH(Fighting In Someone's House)? Because for that you damn well want Full Auto. SA80A2, GRENADE, BANG, Run in shooting and generally kill everyone. This is why the British Army use the SA80 as it is a shorter length and so can be used in CQC/FIBUA etc easier than an M16/M4 i believe.

[Spec]

But if the US forces - except some special forces maybe - dont use any SMG's, it should not be in PR either.

But the MEC is fictional and could really need something for close quarters.

[gclark03]

I'm certain that the Marines, at least during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, used (burst) M4s alongside the M16. I don't know about the other branches, but I'm pretty sure that the Marines still use both weapons on the platoon level, if not the squad level. (My primary source for all this is One Bullet Away, a fantastic read by Nathaniel Fick.)

Moving on, I'd be willing to bend reality for gameplay's sake if I were the one to make a decision such as this. Once reality is bent and the decision is made, though, what SMGs/carbines will be used? The Brits really don't have anything right now - maybe they could use the MP5N/HK53A3 until that SA80 SMG (forget the name) is implemented.

[Thermis]

In a combat situation a carbine rifle would be preferred over an SMG. You have to understand that an SMG is effective at close range only. Urban Combat doesn't happen in just one house. Most of the time you are fighting house to house and need something with range and stopping power.
The .223 round used by the UK and US works because it has low recoil, you can put rounds on target without having to worry about recoil making you miss. The idea really, as already stated is: grenades, run in, shoot anything that moves, move on. And still you can fire accurately on the enemy targets in the another house or in the street.
The recoil on a .308 round for the MEC dose cause issues, such as high recoil and such. But a .308 round should never have been put into a full auto weapon its to hard to control. I believe however this can be fixed by learning how to shoot the weapon by double tapping and aiming. If you really want a kit with a full auto SMG for MEC request the crewman and go have fun.

[Eddiereyes909]

In a combat situation a carbine rifle would be preferred over an SMG. You have to understand that an SMG is effective at close range only. Urban Combat doesn't happen in just one house. Most of the time you are fighting house to house and need something with range and stopping power.
The .223 round used by the UK and US works because it has low recoil, you can put rounds on target without having to worry about recoil making you miss. The idea really, as already stated is: grenades, run in, shoot anything that moves, move on. And still you can fire accurately on the enemy targets in the another house or in the street.
The recoil on a .308 round for the MEC dose cause issues, such as high recoil and such. But a .308 round should never have been put into a full auto weapon its to hard to control. I believe however this can be fixed by learning how to shoot the weapon by double tapping and aiming. If you really want a kit with a full auto SMG for MEC request the crewman and go have fun.

you win.

[Mongolian_dude]

I think a rational solution would be some kind of aimpoint, with no x4 zoom, but just a better field of view.

...mongol...