care more about your life

[xgayox]

Take it easy mate. Its the internet. If you get offended at anything anyone says about your opinion then... well you're the most unoriginal person on the internet.

Answer his arguments and not his alleged condescension and maybe you two will create a positive argument and not just another a-typical internet slut fest. He added lots of good points there.

It makes sense. It isn't about how long spawns are but how close they are. 30 seconds is nothing if you have to hump it for 5 minutes to get to the enemy.

If you'll notice we had quite a nice debate going until he showed up. He didn't bother to read my whole post so i didnt bother to read his. Gotta give respect to get it.

People are pretty revolved around the spawn time as punishment. While i do support that idea, nowhere did i say that is the only answer. I agree it is an interesting idea to make players spawn at only the main, but now you get the dilemma of requiring dedicated transport squads to ferry troops back and forth. On maps like Jabal that is no problem for U.S who need it anyway, but what about for MEC?

[Drake]

The Red Orchestra community came to the conclusion that spawn times does not affect player behavior. Not sure if distance to battle matters.

IMO the hunt for RP's / firebases makes for very interesting gameplay.
If you have two good teams (Fortified bunkers and well hidden RP's), you'll basicly be under fire for over an hour after first 5-10 minutes of round.
I think this is nice, I can always go play ARMA if it gets too much.

Main point with this post:
Spawn times does not make players value their life more. Run'n Gunners will do that no matter what, as PR / RO players will most likely take it calm when playing vBF2 or COD4 despite it not being the best tactic....

[Oldirti]

I agree with this, but it should be even longer for non-main base spawns, otherwise its not really that important.

How about we do the oppisite.

for Main base spawns: -10 seconds
Firebase spawns : -0 seconds
Rally point : +10 seconds

(to your kill time, so basically, it won't affect you in early game, but in late game where you might have up to 20 deaths, you'll deffentily feel it.

__________________________________________________________
Or, we could just promote high K ratios. (not including medic who shouldn't be punished for doing his job)

for every kill you get - .5 for your spawntime (killed spawntime, not crit wounded) (-1 if you're with your squad leader)
for every death you get - 1

this way, defenders don't get all the love, but still get a bonus for staying in an entrenched spot.

[squall6677]

the only way to reduce one persons life loss on this type of game, is to have the whole team work as one, not just as one in a squad, but as one in a team. alot of people confuse teamplay with squadplay and it is vital. the few times i have played squad leader, i never hear the commander talk, hardly get orders and there are 8 squads (only 2 of which are full) and only 2 squads get the point (most likely one full and one not full).

then you have random lone wolfers and noobs that go rambo in tanks and do a pearl hearbor like kamikaze on foot praying and spraying and costing more allied lives than oppo lives.

so to solve this you have to do what? have a full team (32 players if on a 64 player server) to act as a whole. SM doing what SL says SL doing what commander says and the commander getting it right. the reason this doesn't happen is because the only people that work together on a regular basis are clans, and not one clan in the world will ever have 32 players on one server all on the same side. it will never happen.

the only thing we can hope for is an alliance of clans starting to happen, where clans join together and a few nights a month train together and another few nights fight alongside one another, but this is risking it a little isn't it?

[MrD]

I'm still finding that the 60sec spawn time is allowing enemy to die in fighting over a cp and come back in time to help hold off enemy. This needs to be reduced IMO with a 2 minute respawn. But the question is, will the community put up with it?

I'd also like the wounded system to change, with people not dying from most wounded instances, but with the wounded effect going on for much longer, necessitating medical attention to get you back up and going again. Their should would then need to be a 4 minute respawn for suicides when wounded. To prevent people not waiting for a medic to come and heal them.

This extended wounded period will add to the suppression effect system to even further get people to use cover, suppressing fire to effect and squad movement/position tactics even further.

But again, would the community put up with it? The only way to find out will be to have an edited version of the game internally distributed amongst high profile clans to use on a dedicated server as a special game mode night. To test out what the veteran players think of the system. Their opinions should be worthwhile, although there is the point that new players are going to experience culture shock if this system goes mainstream.

[squall6677]

or how about this, if you die within 30m of a specific flag you cannot re-spawn at that specific point for 2 minutes, however any other spawn point would be acceptable and normal times apply?

[Rudd]

I'd also like the wounded system to change, with people not dying from most wounded instances, but with the wounded effect going on for much longer, necessitating medical attention to get you back up and going again. Their should would then need to be a 4 minute respawn for suicides when wounded. To prevent people not waiting for a medic to come and heal them.

I'd love that, truely- a gift to both medics and snipers . I'd also love not being able to heal som1 back to full health, but having to medevac them after stopping the bleeding so that they can be fully healed at main/fb/bunker (acting as the primary casualty reception center- but I don't think that is possible.

[101 bassdrive]

I'd also like the wounded system to change, with people not dying from most wounded instances, but with the wounded effect going on for much longer, necessitating medical attention to get you back up and going again. Their should would then need to be a 4 minute respawn for suicides when wounded. To prevent people not waiting for a medic to come and heal them.

how many specific hitboxes do the playermodels have? would it be possible to make it like:
headshot is headshot
shot in the arm - you cant fire or cant aim well, slow bleed out
shot in the upper torso - no sprint, fast bleed out, fast transfer into crouching only with sight los ( blood los)
shot in the lower torso - no sprint, medium bleed out, transfer into crouching only with sight los
shot in the legs - crouching only but slow bleed out
which means you could render enemies harmless as you suggest. right now its rather alive or dead and instaspawn
.. just daydreaming.
EDIT: arff this smells so disgustingly hardcoded.

[snow]

EDIT: arff this smells so disgustingly hardcoded.

Actually, it just smells like Arma... like the majority of ideas in this thread.

[Alex6714]

Actually, it just smells like Arma... like the majority of ideas in this thread.

Which iirc, is another game and wasn´t what PR was ment to be like.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

If anything, a longer spawn time would make a player adapt FASTER. You'd be sitting there for five minutes thinking about what you did wrong, and how to avoid that next time. if someone kept rushing to their death time after time, then i dont know what to say to that person. If that person is looking for fast paced action all the time, then they would have left the game eventually anyway.

You can't adapt to something that is not your fault like being tked or a yet getting you while running from the open or a tank that comes out of nowhere. Sure, running to your death time and again is one thing, but it is something else if you are walking down the street and some guy comes out of nowhere and shoots you.

In real life, people have to get licenses for the vehicles they drive like the big *** trucks and humvees etc. There is none of that in this game, so you can have a guy who has no training at all transport you and just end of dead from pretty much anything.

I remember as a sniper on jabal, i shot one soldier out of a squad sitting atop a berm. The rest of his squad saw him go down, and instead of hitting the deck for cover, they all proceeded to pull out their binoculars to spot me. None of them cared because they had a rally point 5 meters behind them and they knew they would be back in 30 seconds.

What do you want them to do? They are of course going to try to find you and spot you and if they are in the open, crouching wouldn't do anything anyways, maybe even make them an easier target to hit.

A short spawn time just gives people more leeway to **** around because they know there is not much punishment for dying.

The spawn time is already 35-40+ seconds on average. That is not short by any means, especially considering that you usually get the 15 second added wounded timer on as well. That's close to a minute. Adding 2 or 3 extra minutes on is not going to do anything. And what about people who are attacking and have to rush? Let's just screw them and give the defenders who are essentially camping even more of an advantage than they already have, considering their weapons are already settled and they are entrenched.

SoldierOfFortune, there is only so much ground you can cover in a time span of 20-40 seconds. Depending on where the enemy firebase/rally point is, they will be back tracking you down in no time...

No, 40+ seconds is plenty of time to travel. You could be down a whole nuther street by the time they respond or far enough away so that you could take them out at long range from a better position. The only people who think that is not enough time is the people who are slow and stick around waiting to clear the area COMPLETELY instead of running and gunning to a better position. This is still BF2 and will always be BF2, and speed is what usually wins maps.



I know a lot of you have played in my squads before and probably wonder why I keep saying move up or keep moving? Because that's what keeps you alive. Stay in one spot for more than 30 seconds to a minute and you are likely to get surrounded. In that short amount of time, the enemy could of capped the flag as well by than, which means they are using SPEED!

I am not trying to be harsh, but just remember that this is still BF2 you are playing, not AA or SWAT 4 where you have time on your side. Speed, basic superior tactics, and player skill determines this game, not overcomplicated tactics or movements.

You can have 5 minute respawn times all you want and move in a column or wedge or stack up on a building all you want, but I still gurantee you that some random guy will likely take one of you out and there was nothing you could of done about it.

Scot, It doesn't have to be spawn time. I agree with mammikoura that it doesn't really matter how it happens, but it needs to happen. Either a punishment for death (spawn times, less spawn points, what have you), or an incentive to live. Whatever makes people value their lives.

Until you implement something where people can feel pain or actually bleed ingame, they will never value their lives. Not to mention the easy ways of dying I listed.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I'm still finding that the 60sec spawn time is allowing enemy to die in fighting over a cp and come back in time to help hold off enemy. This needs to be reduced IMO with a 2 minute respawn. But the question is, will the community put up with it?

I'd also like the wounded system to change, with people not dying from most wounded instances, but with the wounded effect going on for much longer, necessitating medical attention to get you back up and going again. Their should would then need to be a 4 minute respawn for suicides when wounded. To prevent people not waiting for a medic to come and heal them.

This extended wounded period will add to the suppression effect system to even further get people to use cover, suppressing fire to effect and squad movement/position tactics even further.

But again, would the community put up with it? The only way to find out will be to have an edited version of the game internally distributed amongst high profile clans to use on a dedicated server as a special game mode night. To test out what the veteran players think of the system. Their opinions should be worthwhile, although there is the point that new players are going to experience culture shock if this system goes mainstream.

That's nice and all, but than it would just be armor and vehicles attacking a CP, not infantry. 1 Tank could take out a CP on its own basically and you wouldn't be able to get someone to come back in to combat it.

FACT: Not everyone walks around with or can get a LAT or HAT kit because of some limitation or problem with the game. Give the armor the advantage by giving players a 2 second respawn time and they would walk all over them.


Not to mention that taking flags in order would be a *****. How many times have you played Jabal and gotten to Bridge just to see Dam fall? What about the city just to see the Bridge fall? Exactly.




The respawn time if fine right now. If the defending team is smart, they won't complain but instead actually have a squad or person look for the enemy rally point and take it out or locate it. If the offensive team is smart, they will take out the bunker, firebase, or rally point from afar and move into the flag cap area. Key here is cutting out their spawn, not the actual people themselves. I thought the spawns were supposed to represent reinforcements? Do we really want reinforcements arriving 3-5 minutes after the flag battle has already been lost?

[xgayox]

Actually, it just smells like Arma... like the majority of ideas in this thread.

SO because something is a good idea (which it is), you wouldn't want it implemented because another game has already done it?

The Red Orchestra community came to the conclusion that spawn times does not affect player behavior. Not sure if distance to battle matters.

IMO the hunt for RP's / firebases makes for very interesting gameplay.
If you have two good teams (Fortified bunkers and well hidden RP's), you'll basicly be under fire for over an hour after first 5-10 minutes of round.
I think this is nice, I can always go play ARMA if it gets too much.

Main point with this post:
Spawn times does not make players value their life more. Run'n Gunners will do that no matter what, as PR / RO players will most likely take it calm when playing vBF2 or COD4 despite it not being the best tactic....

Can you please elaborate on the RO part? (how long were spawns, how big are their maps, etc.)

If someone is so bent on seeing action that they are rushing into the fray even with 2+ spawn times, then good for them. But in PR at least you will feel a bit of security knowing the guy you just killed will not be back in a very short amount of time.

It'd be awesome to see some type of beta with death punishment implemented to see how it played out.

[xgayox]

You can't adapt to something that is not your fault like being tked or a yet getting you while running from the open or a tank that comes out of nowhere. Sure, running to your death time and again is one thing, but it is something else if you are walking down the street and some guy comes out of nowhere and shoots you.

In real life, people have to get licenses for the vehicles they drive like the big *** trucks and humvees etc. There is none of that in this game, so you can have a guy who has no training at all transport you and just end of dead from pretty much anything.

I agree with you there are times you can have stupid illegitimate deaths. But like i said, it doesn't seem like it happens enough to warrant a real problem, but on the same token, thats why i like to see how you can lower your spawn time by doing productive things for your team.

What do you want them to do? They are of course going to try to find you and spot you and if they are in the open, crouching wouldn't do anything anyways, maybe even make them an easier target to hit.

They were not out in the open. They were on the highest mountain next to bridge, i was on ground level beside the river near MEC main. All they had to do was go prone or hell, walk backwards 5m.

The spawn time is already 35-40+ seconds on average. That is not short by any means, especially considering that you usually get the 15 second added wounded timer on as well. That's close to a minute. Adding 2 or 3 extra minutes on is not going to do anything. And what about people who are attacking and have to rush? Let's just screw them and give the defenders who are essentially camping even more of an advantage than they already have, considering their weapons are already settled and they are entrenched.

I dont know man. My spawn has never been even close to a minute, unless i am teamswitching or something. But i have played with you before so i know its not that you are mindlessly rushing. Regardless i still dont think 40 seconds is very long. I cant even go to the bathroom and come back before i spawn.

No, 40+ seconds is plenty of time to travel. You could be down a whole nuther street by the time they respond or far enough away so that you could take them out at long range from a better position. The only people who think that is not enough time is the people who are slow and stick around waiting to clear the area COMPLETELY instead of running and gunning to a better position. This is still BF2 and will always be BF2, and speed is what usually wins maps.

Id correlate the current gameplay with the current spawning parameters. I think some type of death punishment would go a long way in slowing down the gameplay. Again this is all speculation and i would love to see some type of beta distributed. I don't think 40 seconds is alot because you'd still be in the general hot zone. Its not like the guy who comes back is gonna see you arent in your old position, and forget about. Hes gonna go off and look in the most likely direction you went in.

I know a lot of you have played in my squads before and probably wonder why I keep saying move up or keep moving? Because that's what keeps you alive. Stay in one spot for more than 30 seconds to a minute and you are likely to get surrounded. In that short amount of time, the enemy could of capped the flag as well by than, which means they are using SPEED!

Again, this deals with the spawn system. They use speed because they have speed. If you clear a flag area, you can be rest assured they are not coming back in 30 seconds from their rally point 100 meters from the flag. I dont see why someone wouldn't want that.

Until you implement something where people can feel pain or actually bleed ingame, they will never value their lives. Not to mention the easy ways of dying I listed.

See thread: Project virtual reality


Well i fail at quoting but i have to go to work right now.

[Alex6714]

It would be nice to hear some DEV imput on which way PR is heading. Uber realism with 5 hour long games, more fun realism and shorter but enjoyable games or both?

[00SoldierofFortune00]

SO because something is a good idea (which it is), you wouldn't want it implemented because another game has already done it?

That's just the thing, just because it worked in another game, doesn't mean it would work in this game which has a completely different engine and player mentalit/mind set.

[[T]Terranova7]

I personally don't believe spawn times are the answer. For PR, waiting 300+ seconds to respawn would be eternity. Remember unlike Counter-Strike and America's Army, players can actually do things during their deaths. Such watching the remaining players duke it out, planning the next rounds strategy, and generally socializing with other players. In PR, you'll be looking at a black screen for a prolonged period of time. VOIP is limited to your own squad, and not many people use chat on PR especially when dead.

I do however, like the idea of limiting the overall spawn points on the map. Be it complete removal of something like the rally point, or simply limiting it's function based on some sort of numerical system relating to the player's rate of death. On larger maps like Kashan, you obviously want to have an additional supply, if not a surplus of transportation vehicles available. Though, I would love to see some form of the squad vehicle concept adopted (SL's requesting jeeps).

Another idea is the possibility for players to willingly prolong their critically wounded state (which I believe someone mentioned earlier in a similar form) by another 30 seconds or more, just to allow more time for medics to respond.

I would suggest increasing the amount of firebases a team can build to 4 (As opposed to 2). Especially if we take away the bunker's spawn functionality (which I also think is a good idea), and only if rally points lose their spawn function too.

[Drav]

Personally, I'd advocate leaving it as it is. I like having pitched battles in odd bits of the map, pushing up to kill their RP, or falling back to reposition yours. I also think it gives the SL the opportunity to be clever or stupid. It furthermore keeps the squad together. I

I dont like the idea of spawning back at base every time you die. I think its a cheap way of making people scared of dying, and at the same time, removes the one aspect or PR that is truly revolutionary. No other game has done mobile spawn points so well. They are at the centre of the game. Why remove them?

I think if the RPs went, a LOT of players would disappear too. That would be fine for the few that are happy to spend 5 minutes staring at a black screen, then running for another 5 minutes, but that doesent sound much fun to me, and I'd hate to see PR turn like that.

[Epim3theus]

It's already bad enough, that most firefights in PR are squad vs squad, because everyone is busy being spreaded across the map and most of the time you don't face more than 10 enemies.
I actually like 64 players on 16 player maps (Street was an exception of course), because I can have firefights with several groups of enemies rather than some lone marksman and a rifleman. Several times I played Ejod 16p, most 25+ teams still couldn't cover the entire city. On 64 maps it's a ghost town.

Most complain, that 64 players on small maps is "Bf2 vAniLlA". IRL there would be tons of infantry concetrated, clearing buildings and advancing across the area. So most prefer huge maps, where everyone expects a single squad to take a CP. That squad's only hope is their RP, since they don't have a battalion of soldiers to back them up, so we "simulate" a huge assault by having the same 6 people spawn off a pile of bags.

When Op Archer just came out i played the 16 player version with 64 on it, and it's situated in the big village with all the destroyable houses.
It was just fantastic, pure carnage, 64 people tearing the place up without the bunnyhopping. A welcome change to all the rest of the maps.
No vehicles, just charlie and me, eyeball to eyeball.

[xgayox]

That's just the thing, just because it worked in another game, doesn't mean it would work in this game which has a completely different engine and player mentalit/mind set.

How would anyone know? The current system is in place and we have never tried a new system, so what is the harm in doing so? The only thing i could possibly see not making this happen would be time. Up to the devs.

I dont see how its a completely different mind set by the way. A lot of PR players play arma and both of the games are striving for the same goals, realistic gaming.

I agree with alex itd be nice to hear a dev chime in on this.

soldieroffortune, i have edited my response to your points to display properly.