care more about your life

[PFunk]

What would we stand to lose? How about breaking the game, taking a whole release to decide this and in the process losing the community. There are ALOT of mods out there screaming for people's attention.

It isn't THAT broken that we can risk basically the tender game balance that has been built up over numerous releases. Some people thought that 7 and 7.5 changed too much. What would happen with a largely unpopular change?

[xgayox]

What would we stand to lose? How about breaking the game, taking a whole release to decide this and in the process losing the community. There are ALOT of mods out there screaming for people's attention.

It isn't THAT broken that we can risk basically the tender game balance that has been built up over numerous releases. Some people thought that 7 and 7.5 changed too much. What would happen with a largely unpopular change?

I meant a beta....

[kilroy0097]

I still think it would be better without showing any points till the end. No points, no kills and no deaths. Only Tickets. Until the very end. Then you can show all the nifty points and scores.

But whatever. Enjoy your points if they make you happy. I'll be playing with teamwork, not looking to see if I killed the guy at 200m because I can't see him anymore by looking at my kill count in Tab or seeing their name suddenly grey out, not basing skill on kills or points and instead observing players and squads on the map and looking at tickets in a strategic way and not just as a timer. (This is a run on sentence)

[00SoldierofFortune00]

How would anyone know? The current system is in place and we have never tried a new system, so what is the harm in doing so? The only thing i could possibly see not making this happen would be time. Up to the devs.

I dont see how its a completely different mind set by the way. A lot of PR players play arma and both of the games are striving for the same goals, realistic gaming.

I agree with alex itd be nice to hear a dev chime in on this.

soldieroffortune, i have edited my response to your points to display properly.

Because this engine was never designed for what you want. It was made as a half realistic and half gameplay kind of game. It's like trying to make CSS into something that BF2 is doing which they tried with Insurgency and it doesn't exactly work out correctly.


It's just way to easy to die in this game. It was never designed for you to survive for a long period of time plain and simple.

[ReaperMAC]

Because this engine was never designed for what you want. It was made as a half realistic and half gameplay kind of game. It's like trying to make CSS into something that BF2 is doing which they tried with Insurgency and it doesn't exactly work out correctly.


It's just way to easy to die in this game. It was never designed for you to survive for a long period of time plain and simple.

Exactly, PR will never be like ArmA.

[xgayox]

Because this engine was never designed for what you want. It was made as a half realistic and half gameplay kind of game. It's like trying to make CSS into something that BF2 is doing which they tried with Insurgency and it doesn't exactly work out correctly.


It's just way to easy to die in this game. It was never designed for you to survive for a long period of time plain and simple.

How was it never designed for that plain and simple when they implemented a medic system that could get you up from anything, for an infinite amount of times? Even currently a medic can still get you up from mostly anything beside a headshot or a huge explosion. I dont even know why im bothering to reply since you ignore half of my points man.

Also people, please read. I brought up arma twice. Once to reference that people still were not afraid with extremely long spawn times, and the other to reference that i didnt think the players had a COMPLETELY different mindset. NOWHERE did i say pr should be arma.

Totally agree. Its warfare condensed, with all the boring sitting around looking at porn removed. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of combat troops never even get a decent look at an enemy, which is why they dont die so much. Just like Arma

I have to ask if we are playing the same game. It is also extremely easy to die in arma. 2 shots and you're done. no messed up hitboxes. Fall off a 5 foot drop and you're crippled. Its all made worse by the fact there is no resurrection system.

[Drav]

It's just way to easy to die in this game. It was never designed for you to survive for a long period of time plain and simple.

Totally agree. Its warfare condensed, with all the boring sitting around looking at porn removed. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of combat troops never even get a decent look at an enemy, which is why they dont die so much. Just like Arma

I like the idea of no scores until the end tho. That would be kinda cool.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

How was it never designed for that plain and simple when they implemented a medic system that could get you up from anything, for an infinite amount of times? Even currently a medic can still get you up from mostly anything beside a headshot or a huge explosion. I dont even know why im bothering to reply since you ignore half of my points man.

You just answered your own question. The medic in PR cannot revive everyone because of headshots, explosions, and the simple fact that they cannot see where the wounded is unless they are 5 feet next to them. I don't even worry about getting revived in this game because the lack of medics, no incentive, ground glitches, and being unable to find someone are so high.

I have to ask if we are playing the same game. It is also extremely easy to die in arma. 2 shots and you're done. no messed up hitboxes. Fall off a 5 foot drop and you're crippled. Its all made worse by the fact there is no resurrection system.

Yea, and the resurrection system in this game is pretty messed up too.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I agree with you there are times you can have stupid illegitimate deaths. But like i said, it doesn't seem like it happens enough to warrant a real problem, but on the same token, thats why i like to see how you can lower your spawn time by doing productive things for your team.

It is a problem. When you have two attacking teams, someone is going to run into someone first and there would of been nothing he could of done about it. Same with tks, being glitched inbetween objects, etc.

I dont know man. My spawn has never been even close to a minute, unless i am teamswitching or something. But i have played with you before so i know its not that you are mindlessly rushing. Regardless i still dont think 40 seconds is very long. I cant even go to the bathroom and come back before i spawn.

I was playing on Kashan last night and my squad was in a chopper and he got shot at and than crashed into a hill. It ended up being an 80second respawn timer for all of us. I also got stuck inbetween a vehicle and tree before and insta-killed. A 45second respawn. A lot of those kind of things happen ingame.

Id correlate the current gameplay with the current spawning parameters. I think some type of death punishment would go a long way in slowing down the gameplay. Again this is all speculation and i would love to see some type of beta distributed. I don't think 40 seconds is alot because you'd still be in the general hot zone. Its not like the guy who comes back is gonna see you arent in your old position, and forget about. Hes gonna go off and look in the most likely direction you went in.

That's why you smoke and lose them. That also makes the game fun. If it is too easy for someone to get away because of restrictions or spawning, than you hand the game to the players who may not be the best teamplayers, they just shoot the best.

[xgayox]

You just answered your own question. The medic in PR cannot revive everyone because of headshots, explosions, and the simple fact that they cannot see where the wounded is unless they are 5 feet next to them. I don't even worry about getting revived in this game because the lack of medics, no incentive, ground glitches, and being unable to find someone are so high.





Yea, and the resurrection system in this game is pretty messed up too.

I thought we were talking about the BF2 engine, but ok. Having no medic in your squad is the squad leader's fault. Ground glitches are solved by throwing a field dressing on the body. Takes about 2 seconds. Everything you just mentioned are inter-squad problems and its up the squad leader to solve them. I have no problem being a medic. My incentive is keeping my squad alive so we can get the objective complete. If the medic cant find someone, the squad is either too spread apart, or he is too busy trying to kill people. Yes, its situational, but most of the time he should be on his feet as to who is going down, and where.

I was playing on Kashan last night and my squad was in a chopper and he got shot at and than crashed into a hill. It ended up being an 80second respawn timer for all of us. I also got stuck inbetween a vehicle and tree before and insta-killed. A 45second respawn. A lot of those kind of things happen ingame.

Ok, i have to admit i was wrong on this one. After actually taking notice of my spawn time last night it was around 45 seconds. I guess my judgement of time is a bit construed because of playing arma and having really long spawn times in comparison there. But like i said, doesn't it seem fair that you can lower your spawn time by doing productive things for your team?

That's why you smoke and lose them. That also makes the game fun. If it is too easy for someone to get away because of restrictions or spawning, than you hand the game to the players who may not be the best teamplayers, they just shoot the best.

I see no difference between that and the current system. You are still rewarding the best shooters, it just feels way less "gamey" than if that guy is constantly coming back. And i would say theres a good chance that guy will get you one of those times with a grenade or blind spot and waste your whole squad. I fail to see the relation between spawn points and teamwork. With players who don't care, it probably goes as far as working together to get the spawn point up, and then thats it. Everyone goes off and does their own thing until it goes down and they need a new one.

[snow]

I see no difference between that and the current system. You are still rewarding the best shooters, it just feels way less "gamey" than if that guy is constantly coming back. And i would say theres a good chance that guy will get you one of those times with a grenade or blind spot and waste your whole squad. I fail to see the relation between spawn points and teamwork. With players who don't care, it probably goes as far as working together to get the spawn point up, and then thats it. Everyone goes off and does their own thing until it goes down and they need a new one.

RPs contribute to teamwork by allowing squadmates to gather with relative ease. I think we would see a radical reduction in teamwork if people had to spawn at the main each time they died (even if there was a giant Pez dispenser of jeeps there and every player could get one whenever he wanted), simply due to the logistical hurdles and exponential increase in downtime of getting and keeping the squad together within PRs quite large maps.

Spawning, and by extension RPs, is obviously an extremely fake and "gamey" conceit but no more so than tanks that appear from thin air x minutes after they were destroyed, bandages that stop you from bleeding when you step on them with your boot, a chat system that allows you to communicate with an OpFor at will, etc etc etc. These are gamey devices because, wait for it... it's a game.

This criticism of something being "gamey" within the context of a videogame--even one expressly built around "relative realism" aspirations--is a really preposterously slippery slope.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I thought we were talking about the BF2 engine, but ok. Having no medic in your squad is the squad leader's fault. Ground glitches are solved by throwing a field dressing on the body. Takes about 2 seconds. Everything you just mentioned are inter-squad problems and its up the squad leader to solve them. I have no problem being a medic. My incentive is keeping my squad alive so we can get the objective complete. If the medic cant find someone, the squad is either too spread apart, or he is too busy trying to kill people. Yes, its situational, but most of the time he should be on his feet as to who is going down, and where.

-Having a medic is not really the SL's fault. I always ask for a medic, but you can't force people to do anything. Yes, I could kick him and eventually someone else would join, but they could do the same very thing. Medic isn't a very enticing kit anymore, so what do you expect?

-It takes more than 2 seconds for a field dressing. You got to pull it out, than it has a slight 2-3 second delay (which they added back in 0.7), and than you got to pull out your shock paddles again. That's ain't much time at all.

-You have to stay slightly spread out to avoid frags, but if you are in a forest, the icon doesn't always show up and you may not be able to find the person. Simple as that and there is nothing you can do to solve it as a squad.

Ok, i have to admit i was wrong on this one. After actually taking notice of my spawn time last night it was around 45 seconds. I guess my judgement of time is a bit construed because of playing arma and having really long spawn times in comparison there. But like i said, doesn't it seem fair that you can lower your spawn time by doing productive things for your team?

You can get killed in this game so many ways and they actually up your spawn time. I was tked in a chopper and had an 80 second respawn time. I was glitched between two objects and instant 50 second respawn time at the start of a round. etc.

I see no difference between that and the current system. You are still rewarding the best shooters, it just feels way less "gamey" than if that guy is constantly coming back. And i would say theres a good chance that guy will get you one of those times with a grenade or blind spot and waste your whole squad. I fail to see the relation between spawn points and teamwork. With players who don't care, it probably goes as far as working together to get the spawn point up, and then thats it. Everyone goes off and does their own thing until it goes down and they need a new one.

Spawn points allow your squad a replace to regroup at when they die and a sport to attack from.


If players are not given a rally point, do you think it would suddenly be a relevation to them and make them change their mind? No. Have you played BFV? No squads or VOIP or rallypoints, so everyone goes off in their own direction.

VBF2 would have more teamwork than PR if RPs were taken out. That's what seperates BF2/PR from games like CSS. SL spawns and RPs.

[Rudd]

-Having a medic is not really the SL's fault. I always ask for a medic, but you can't force people to do anything. Yes, I could kick him and eventually someone else would join, but they could do the same very thing. Medic isn't a very enticing kit anymore, so what do you expect?

-It takes more than 2 seconds for a field dressing. You got to pull it out, than it has a slight 2-3 second delay (which they added back in 0.7), and than you got to pull out your shock paddles again. That's ain't much time at all.

Blasphemy!!

medics can actually pull out their first dressing immediately, and their second if they have prepared it beforehand.

But you are right that it isn't the SL's fault. Its his responsibility to say something along the lines of "right, the squad needs an AR rifleman, a medic and a LAT" at the start of the round or when every1 spawns, but if they dont follow orders/suggestions- the buck is passed to the squadmember

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Blasphemy!!

medics can actually pull out their first dressing immediately, and their second if they have prepared it beforehand.

But you are right that it isn't the SL's fault. Its his responsibility to say something along the lines of "right, the squad needs an AR rifleman, a medic and a LAT" at the start of the round or when every1 spawns, but if they dont follow orders/suggestions- the buck is passed to the squadmember

It takes me a while to pull out mine as SL, so I assumed it was the same for medic.

[mammikoura]

But you are right that it isn't the SL's fault. Its his responsibility to say something along the lines of "right, the squad needs an AR rifleman, a medic and a LAT" at the start of the round or when every1 spawns, but if they dont follow orders/suggestions- the buck is passed to the squadmember

yes but you need to exact. If you say "alright we need a medic and l-at" then the chances are you will have no medics and no l-at. You need to say "alright, player A takes medic and player B takes l-at. If they don't do as you wish then you are playing with the wrong people.

And as for medic not finding the wounded guy.. well it rarely happens. I can't even remember when this has happened to the squad I am in. Sometimes you do hear "can't find you" or "where are you" but you have 30 seconds which is plenty of time since someone in the squad has to know exactly where the downed guy is.

Still obviously no one is good enough to revive every fallen squad member, but just one good medic can keep the squad going for ages.

[[T]Terranova7]

Spawn points allow your squad a replace to regroup at when they die and a sport to attack from.


If players are not given a rally point, do you think it would suddenly be a relevation to them and make them change their mind? No. Have you played BFV? No squads or VOIP or rallypoints, so everyone goes off in their own direction.

VBF2 would have more teamwork than PR if RPs were taken out. That's what seperates BF2/PR from games like CSS. SL spawns and RPs.

Bit of an exaggeration here. PR will most certainly have a greater level of teamwork at any given time regardless of whether or not RPs exist. Rally points are a tool, not a basis for teamwork.

You talk about players using the rally point to regroup, but more often than not rally points are used as an offensive device, where players will respawn and continue to rush their objective in endless waves. Regrouping would be more along the lines of "Okay, we just repelled an enemy assault from the trenches, let's all regroup on the new move marker and plan our next move".

I would say a good 75% of a game is spent fighting to obtain a superior presence of rally points in a general area. Meaning that most of the time, you're moving back and forth and trying to set up your own rally, and also trying to destroy any nearby enemy rallies. It's only once you've obtain this superiority, that you can have the best chance of securing any nearby control points.

Because of that, I wouldn't mind seeing them removed or limited (their spawn function at the very least). Additional transport can be available at the main bases. But even then though, the dependency on rally points will simply switch over to firebases. Up the count to something like 4 firebases per team, and bam things are made for the better. Reason I find firebases more acceptable is that unlike rally points, they can't be placed as easily, and thus greater effort will be required to safely construct one. Meaning generally you're not going to find a firebase being built 100 meters out in a bush, or up in a tree away from the flag you're defending.

[xgayox]

RPs contribute to teamwork by allowing squadmates to gather with relative ease. I think we would see a radical reduction in teamwork if people had to spawn at the main each time they died (even if there was a giant Pez dispenser of jeeps there and every player could get one whenever he wanted), simply due to the logistical hurdles and exponential increase in downtime of getting and keeping the squad together within PRs quite large maps.

Spawning, and by extension RPs, is obviously an extremely fake and "gamey" conceit but no more so than tanks that appear from thin air x minutes after they were destroyed, bandages that stop you from bleeding when you step on them with your boot, a chat system that allows you to communicate with an OpFor at will, etc etc etc. These are gamey devices because, wait for it... it's a game.

This criticism of something being "gamey" within the context of a videogame--even one expressly built around "relative realism" aspirations--is a really preposterously slippery slope.

If everyone had to spawn at the main, or other place further than 100m from the frontlines, You'd see great teamwork in completely dedicated transport squads ferrying(sp?) troops to different parts of the map. Encourages more comms and cooperation between different squads.

Please stop with this "its a game" argument. That is so old and tired. Yes its a game. Everyone knows its a game. You dont need to tell us its a game. The goal here is try to take out as much of that "game" aspect as possible. Im sure if PR had more animators there'd be animations for alot of the things you mentioned. The chat system? Seriously? What does that have to do with gameplay at all? And you cant possibly compare the spawning of a tank with the spawning of soldiers on an RP....

Has already been said, but yes, not having a medic is COMPLETELY the squad leader's fault. If not his, then who's? You are supposed to be the one in command, if you cant take control of the situation, its on you. What, you dont want to kick him becuase the next guy who joins could do the same thing? Thats good enough odds for me to get rid of this guy who is currently not following my orders at all.

As far as the field dressing, if you know where he went down you can throw the dressing on him so by the time the medic gets to him he is all ready to be brought back. If you are too busy suppressing/killing, then as said, the medics got a time frame of 30 seconds. Yes sometimes the medic wont be able to get him, there are times you will be completely fucked, but every situation cant end up perfectly in your favor.

[LekyIRL]

Still obviously no one is good enough to revive every fallen squad member, but just one good medic can keep the squad going for ages.

x2. I not trying to boast but I managed to revive a good few of my teammates during the PRT battle yesterday. It probably didn't change the course of the battle but at least it saved some tickets.

About people not going medic-it's basicly because medic is about teamwork not kills. Because you're using ironsights it's harder for you to hit long range targets. My KDR ratio in my most recent battle was 8-9 with 4 of those kills being knife kills.
I like medic because I'm a terrible shot and medic gives me an excuse for this.
Not all people are killing machines, some prefer to stay at the back and heal people or supply some ammo.

[xgayox]

x2. I not trying to boast but I managed to revive a good few of my teammates during the PRT battle yesterday. It probably didn't change the course of the battle but at least it saved some tickets.

About people not going medic-it's basicly because medic is about teamwork not kills. Because you're using ironsights it's harder for you to hit long range targets. My KDR ratio in my most recent battle was 8-9 with 4 of those kills being knife kills.
I like medic because I'm a terrible shot and medic gives me an excuse for this.
Not all people are killing machines, some prefer to stay at the back and heal people or supply some ammo.

Exactly. Not having a medic in your squad is just giving yourself a huge disadvantage. Which reveals alot as to why some people seem so dependent on a rally point in this thread. There are 5 other people in your squad with better killing capabilities than you, and not having a medic is just not using them to their full potential.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Terranova7;663312']Bit of an exaggeration here. PR will most certainly have a greater level of teamwork at any given time regardless of whether or not RPs exist. Rally points are a tool, not a basis for teamwork.

You talk about players using the rally point to regroup, but more often than not rally points are used as an offensive device, where players will respawn and continue to rush their objective in endless waves. Regrouping would be more along the lines of "Okay, we just repelled an enemy assault from the trenches, let's all regroup on the new move marker and plan our next move".

They are just as good for defense as offensive. I use them for defense until we get a commander or bunker up on the flag. Without a RP, the defenders would just lose the flag to a bunch of nade spammers and than it would be a tug of war between 1 flag.

And I disagree. Rallys and SL spawns are what made BF2/PR. I have plenty of games that involve teamwork in CSS or TF2, but those are very small maps. Think what it would be like if everyone spawned at main, and someone was killed on their way to the objective. They would have to look at their minimap every second to make it to the SL and if the rest of the squad is wiped out before he gets there, what does he do? Do you want to wait 2 minutes before you regroup? Does that sound like FUN to you? IT doesn't to me.

I would say a good 75% of a game is spent fighting to obtain a superior presence of rally points in a general area. Meaning that most of the time, you're moving back and forth and trying to set up your own rally, and also trying to destroy any nearby enemy rallies. It's only once you've obtain this superiority, that you can have the best chance of securing any nearby control points.

Because of that, I wouldn't mind seeing them removed or limited (their spawn function at the very least). Additional transport can be available at the main bases. But even then though, the dependency on rally points will simply switch over to firebases. Up the count to something like 4 firebases per team, and bam things are made for the better. Reason I find firebases more acceptable is that unlike rally points, they can't be placed as easily, and thus greater effort will be required to safely construct one. Meaning generally you're not going to find a firebase being built 100 meters out in a bush, or up in a tree away from the flag you're defending.

No, firebases would just become someplace to camp. Remember why the flag spawns were taken out in the first place? Because everyone knew them and camped them. Guess what? Firebases have a big sign on them that say "CAMP HERE" because they are so big. They can be hid, but not as well as a rally point and as a SL, I cannot ensure that the firebase would be in a good spot everytime.

Play BFV and it has exactly the system you are talking about. That is called the reinforcement or WAVE system. Everyone dies, than everyone spawns back in at a firebase and than moves in, in a huge wave. And both RPs and firebases have to be 100M away anyway, so its not like they are spawning right on the flag.


Most of you guys need to remember the whole reason why RPs were put in in the first place. They are there to stop spawn camping and give your squad an element of surprise and a way to operate behind the enemy. I don't want to have to rely on a CO to build a firebase or a CO who may never come.