Deviation&recoil suggestions

[Outlawz7]

Currently, the pistol has no deviation when walking with it with ironsights up, however rifles don't and this is what I'd like to suggest: ironsight up=no/little deviation.
Why?
Currently, the person walking into an area with sights up has little or no advantage to a run'n'gunner who just ran into him and brought his sights up in a moment. If the enemy goes prone, it's even worse as he instantly gains more accuracy over you, not to mention the sights usually cover them completely and you can't see them.
So if rifles had less deviation with sights up when moving, it would give a serious advantage to the cautious and punish the tard rushers running into your face.

Next, the recoil in-game. All fine and dandy except for the fact, that it always goes up. A lot of enemies I fired upon, went instaprone on me and exploited the recoil to shoot me on full auto, since due the recoil the bullets got sent over my entire body from bottom up + extra accuracy when prone.
So if possible, try making the recoil go down/sideways.

[Waaah_Wah]

So if possible, try making the recoil go down/sideways.

Down would be retarded...

[Oldirti]

Down would be retarded...

agreed

[Sirsolo]

Currently, the pistol has no deviation when walking with it with ironsights up, however rifles don't and this is what I'd like to suggest: ironsight up=no/little deviation.
Why?
Currently, the person walking into an area with sights up has little or no advantage to a run'n'gunner who just ran into him and brought his sights up in a moment. If the enemy goes prone, it's even worse as he instantly gains more accuracy over you, not to mention the sights usually cover them completely and you can't see them.
So if rifles had less deviation with sights up when moving, it would give a serious advantage to the cautious and punish the tard rushers running into your face.

Next, the recoil in-game. All fine and dandy except for the fact, that it always goes up. A lot of enemies I fired upon, went instaprone on me and exploited the recoil to shoot me on full auto, since due the recoil the bullets got sent over my entire body from bottom up + extra accuracy when prone.
So if possible, try making the recoil go down/sideways.

The down and sideways "recoil" is instead replaced with deviation =)

[nedlands1]

Down would be retarded...

Actually it wouldn't be. What do you do if you try to steady an automatic weapon with a fair bit of recoil? You pull it down and if you are still pulling while the next round is cycling then barrel would move down, I imagine. The question is how much should be approximated by the game (in the case of random up/down movement) and how much should be done by the player (in the case of forcing the player to pull his/her mouse down to overcome the random upwards muzzle climb). I personally prefer the latter which is currently in-game. Having said that, I think there needs to be no muzzle climb to the left and more to the right in the case of rifles, which are all fired from the right hip/shoulder.

Back to the original proposition. This is the current deviation code for the M16A4 rifle with irons and the Beretta M9 pistol:

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
rem 556 Iron Sight Standard Accuracy Assault Rifle
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 0.1 0.05 0.005
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 0.1 0.05 0.05 0.005
[b] ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 2 2 2 0.05[/b]
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 2 2 0.05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.5
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 1.2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 1.0
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 1
rem ---EndComp ---

M16A4 with Irons

Code: Select all

rem ---BeginComp:SoldierDeviationComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SoldierDeviationComp
ObjectTemplate.deviation.minDev 0.1
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setFireDev 0.1 0.05 0.005
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setTurnDev 0.1 0.05 0.05 0.005[b]
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setSpeedDev 0.1 0.05 0.05 0.005[/b]
ObjectTemplate.deviation.setMiscDev 2 2 0.05
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModStand 1.5
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModCrouch 1.2
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModLie 1.0
ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom 1
rem ---EndComp ---

Beretta M9

I have highlighted the difference between the two which results in the better handling of the pistol when moving. Notice how the rest of the code is the same. This means that the Beretta is just as accurate as the M16A4 (except when moving where it is actually more accurate ).

The first number is the maximum deviation that can be added from walking/running/strafing, the second number is the amount added every server frame (every 1/30 of a second) from walking/running, the third number is the amount added every server frame from strafing and the final number is the amount reduced every server frame while not running/walking/strafing.

From this you can see some key differences between the M16A4 and the Beretta M9. The M16A4 has a huge amount of maximum added deviation due to movement compared to the M9 (2 vs 0.1). When you compare these values to the "mindev" of 0.1 you get an idea of the scale. The M16A4 is instantaneously at it's maximum deviation value after moving whereas the M9 takes 1/15 of a second to reach it's maximum. Also the Beretta M9 takes half the time to steady than the M16A4 (2/3 vs 1 1/3 seconds).

This is all well and good but it doesn't address the "sights-up" random deviation. This is where the "ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom" modifier comes in. It is currently set to 1 for all handheld weapons, IIRC. This means that weapons are just as accurate from the hip as "sights up". If this value was set to a value less than 1, than weapons would more accurate while "sights up" than from the hip.

Perhaps if the "ObjectTemplate.deviation.devModZoom" modifier was set to value less than one, the baseline deviation was scaled up to offset this accuracy boost and the movement deviation values scaled down it would set apart the players with their scopes up from those who rush in. It would also make the movement deviation more realistic (ie less rounds going nowhere near where you are a looking but still not being quite as accurate as being steady).

[Deadmonkiefart]

Recoil going down? lulz

[nedlands1]

Recoil going down? lulz

Yes. Recoil goes into your shoulder and results in was is termed, "muzzle climb". Trying to counteract this "muzzle climb" can result in the muzzle being lowered.

[Deadmonkiefart]

I thought "recoil" was the force on the shooter and "muzzle climb" was the upward force? How could recoil be down? Wouldn't it be "muzzle drop" or something?

Ah, nvrmnd. I get it now.

[Outlawz7]

Right, so everyone LOL'd at the recoil idea :/

Moving on, beside nedlands does anyone have any thoughts on the ironsight suggestion?

Despite the facts above, when walking with rifle sights up, there's still more deviation than if you stand still, IMO.

[Cyrax-Sektor]

Not sure if soldiers in real life look into their sights while moving in, but I have seen it in movies. If they do, I vote for less deviation. With the sight up, we're moving in slower, focused. Poised to strike.

Then there's the circle strafing maniac with a SAW that mows you down like a garden gnome. But that's a different problem I suppose.

[Howitzer]

On magazine feeded rifles , the recoil goes upward and on the opposite side of witch the brass is ejected, in automatic mode

by exemple , on the M16/C7 , the recoil goes up and left(a bit)

[nedlands1]

On magazine feeded rifles , the recoil goes upward and on the opposite side of witch the brass is ejected, in automatic mode

by exemple , on the M16/C7 , the recoil goes up and left(a bit)

I don't think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEo8yRiDU0w[/youtube]
Watch the first few slow-motion shots. The recoil of the rifle causes the shooter's shoulder to move back, bringing the gun to the side which the brass is ejecting from. The shooter then tries to compensate resulting in a back an forth movement of the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9czJ4riFo0[/youtube]
Again, movement in the opposite direction from where the brass is being ejected.

Then again these are large calibre rifles. Perhaps the casing for 5.56mm rifles is heavy enough and the recoil small enough for what you say to happen.

[Zimmer]

Recoil is the same power as the power pushing the bullet just the otherway so its all up to how you hold the gun if it will go up or down since its the force that hit you in the shoulder that says if it will go up or down.

[LeadMagnet]

Let's get this settled right now. On single shot the recoil goes straight back into the shooters shoulder. The muzzle climb is straight up and slightly away from the bracing hand (if you're using your right hand to pull the trigger the muzzle will climb slightly to the right and vice versa). On automatic or burst fire the lateral movement increases with each subsequent round fired but here's where it gets tricky. After the 2nd or 3rd round (depending on the ROF of the weapon) the shooters natural instinct will be to pull down and to the left (if using the left hand to brace).

This is another reason we teach shooters with DMR's to place the offhand on the stock giving more control on the lateral movement when prone or supported on a modified benchrest.

[nedlands1]

Let's get this settled right now. On single shot the recoil goes straight back into the shooters shoulder. The muzzle climb is straight up and slightly away from the bracing hand (if you're using your right hand to pull the trigger the muzzle will climb slightly to the right and vice versa). On automatic or burst fire the lateral movement increases with each subsequent round fired but here's where it gets tricky. After the 2nd or 3rd round (depending on the ROF of the weapon) the shooters natural instinct will be to pull down and to the left (if using the left hand to brace).

You can really see the tendency of a right handed shooter to pull down and to the left when the magazine runs dry in the clip with the BAR.