Do you think Bunkers/Firebases should Heal?

[Mosquill]

That does not make any sense, the engine is built so that it would need to be hacked to get more players.

Noone currently knows how to do this. Absolutely noone.

And we have tried several things so far, but it is not yet possible.

Afaik, no one has tried Josh_sq1's method or Tavu's method. The little test we had some while ago was doomed to fail.

[M.Warren]

I must agree with what [R-MOD]Masaq has said and he's right. It's still about teamwork in the end.

The problem is a majority of Project Reality players are beginning to become lazy, and in a sense slip away back into the archaic demeanor in which Battlefield 2 has presented. It's also obvious that a majority of players are becoming increasingly more comfortable with how Project Reality works and end up "tard rushing" no different than what was presented in Battlefield 2 and don't do much to try and better themselves at gameplay.

On occasion I still find myself stumbling across players that freak out when they begin bleeding and all effects of thought and common sense go out the window. How so? They toss down thier bandage and realize that it hasn't stopped the bleeding and proceed to freak out rather than remaining calm and checking thier map interface for a Medic, proceeding to a Bunker/Firebase, or approaching a nearby vehicle for a supply crate or an ammo dump. Heck, you can even ask your Squad Leader with an Officer kit who has 3 field dressings.

If you're familiar with the game it's far easier to reload things that have a larger quantity of items. The Officer kit has 3 field dressings, as opposed to the riflemans 1 field dressing. So technically you could throw your ammo bag at your Officer and he can heal you 3 times as fast if a Medic is not present, although a Medic could do it 5 times as fast... Project Reality requires you to think straight and use your head. You must be resourceful and at times even think up a clever alternative. It's all there, you simply just have to open your eyes and also think about what you need to do. Soon as you get used to what you need to do, it'll become second nature then to instinct. Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork.

Although the idea of having a firebase that is capable of offering a very slight healing ability it's simply no more than just being convienient. Besides, if you reload your bandage and keep tossing them at your feet to get yourself healthy again, it'll most likely be faster anyways. On average most players only need to utilize 1-3 bandages to patch themselves up.

Personally I don't really mind if it's implemented or not it's just an accent to gameplay. Adding a slight healing ability to a Bunker/Firebase isn't going to accomplish much if the emplacement is being attacked. Why? Because a fragmentation grenade, anti-tank rocket, grenade launcher, or concentrated incoming enemy fire is bound to ruin your day no matter what. So for your players think that milking the bunker your in for healing is going to save you, think again, it ain't.

I still suggest that Medics be offered 4 smoke grenades to compliment thier abilities and offer them a significantly better defensive capability as previously stated in my other post.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

If we can calculate the maximum rate at which one can heal to full with unlimited field dressing s at a FB/bunker, we could use that number to determine the auto-heal rate, negating one of the 'imbalanced' advantages of bunker auto-healing while encouraging the use of medics for faster healing.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Sod that for a game of soldiers.

If people can't use the medic kits properly, why the hell should the game compensate for them? We don't have tanks automatically destroying after 20 minutes just because the HAT kit can be tricky to use, we don't have bridges automatically pop back into existance just because nobody can be bothered to wrench them back to full health.

Don't compare the medic kit to a HAT kit. Right now, the HAT kit is 10x more effective and has much more incentive to be used then a medic with the amount of armor on a map. HAT has a rifle with a scope for 1, something that can be used as an anti-armor or anti-personel weapon for 2, and 3, something that can always be used.

If someone gets shot in the head, can they be healed? No. If someone is wounded, does it always take two shocks? No, it may end up taking two. Even if you are mediced, by the time he comes, you could of respawned back at the RP or Firebase and don't have to worry about being mediced and out of the combat for even longer then it takes to respawn back. Does a medic have nades? No. Does a medic have a scope? No. I am not saying he should have all these things, but it makes his job a lot harder to do and turns people off the medic kit in the first place while kits like the HAT/LAT have all the reasons to pick them.

Seriously, get a grip and look at this properly.

You are looking at it from the point of view that everything always goes right when it never does.

Medics aren't doing their job properly? Why? As several people have said, it's because the rest of their squad don't support them properly. Your medic isn't going to run out from behind cover to zap you if you die - so don't run out into the open and get shot out there.

If you even have a medic in your squad by chance, it is not necessarily the squads fault either. Saying "don't run into the open" is a terrible excuse since you can just as easily be shot behind cover from an enemy with a scope or sniper rifle and those usually end up being headshots.

If you have a bunker or firebase up, here's what you do:

1. Have every member of your squad enter it and place ALL their bandages, and pick up new supplies from the ammo supply.
2. If you have a squad with one officer, one medic and four grunts, that gives you a total of 12 bandages lying on the floor, or 16 if your squad includes two medics (as it ideally should)
3. Run around, do your normal killing-people stuff.
4. If you get injured, you have your bandages that you've restocked to heal yourself with in the short-term. If it isn't enough, you can return to the firebase/bunker and instantly heal yourself to full health.
5. The game doesn't NEED to have a field-hospital asset or include bunkers/firebases that heal people because if you use the existing assets well, you already gain the same effect. But you have to work for it.

Bunkers are already hard enough to set up because you need a CO, CO post, correct location, and builders. What if you have a squad called "CO builders" which I have seen before who moves around and helps the CO but are all engineers. They are going to need some way of healing themselves, so by setting up a bunker, they have a place to heal themselves.

Isn't this game also suppose to have realism in it? Are you telling me it is more realistic to recharge your bandages when you can just get healed at a firebase/bunker which acts as a field hospital? Not saying we shouldn't have bandages, but if people are going to use the realism argument, throwing 12 bandages on the ground vs. a field hospital, tell me which one sounds more realistic?

Much better than feeble "oh, my medics won't heal me so the game should do it for me" approach.

I know everyone here has seen medics go right past them plenty of times who don't care. This isn't eliminating the medics, but it is giving the team even more incentive to set up a firebase/bunker.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I must agree with what [R-MOD]Masaq has said and he's right. It's still about teamwork in the end.

The problem is a majority of Project Reality players are beginning to become lazy, and in a sense slip away back into the archaic demeanor in which Battlefield 2 has presented. It's also obvious that a majority of players are becoming increasingly more comfortable with how Project Reality works and end up "tard rushing" no different than what was presented in Battlefield 2 and don't do much to try and better themselves at gameplay.

On occasion I still find myself stumbling across players that freak out when they begin bleeding and all effects of thought and common sense go out the window. How so? They toss down thier bandage and realize that it hasn't stopped the bleeding and proceed to freak out rather than remaining calm and checking thier map interface for a Medic, proceeding to a Bunker/Firebase, or approaching a nearby vehicle for a supply crate or an ammo dump. Heck, you can even ask your Squad Leader with an Officer kit who has 3 field dressings.

If you're familiar with the game it's far easier to reload things that have a larger quantity of items. The Officer kit has 3 field dressings, as opposed to the riflemans 1 field dressing. So technically you could throw your ammo bag at your Officer and he can heal you 3 times as fast if a Medic is not present, although a Medic could do it 5 times as fast... Project Reality requires you to think straight and use your head. You must be resourceful and at times even think up a clever alternative. It's all there, you simply just have to open your eyes and also think about what you need to do. Soon as you get used to what you need to do, it'll become second nature then to instinct. Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork.

Although the idea of having a firebase that is capable of offering a very slight healing ability it's simply no more than just being convienient. Besides, if you reload your bandage and keep tossing them at your feet to get yourself healthy again, it'll most likely be faster anyways. On average most players only need to utilize 1-3 bandages to patch themselves up.

Personally I don't really mind if it's implemented or not it's just an accent to gameplay. Adding a slight healing ability to a Bunker/Firebase isn't going to accomplish much if the emplacement is being attacked. Why? Because a fragmentation grenade, anti-tank rocket, grenade launcher, or concentrated incoming enemy fire is bound to ruin your day no matter what. So for your players think that milking the bunker your in for healing is going to save you, think again, it ain't.

I still suggest that Medics be offered 4 smoke grenades to compliment thier abilities and offer them a significantly better defensive capability as previously stated in my other post.

If you have even set up a firebase in the first place, there is your teamwork right there. This is something that is also semi/realistic for the realism fans.

And medics don't need more smoke, they need scopes.


I agree with giving your squadmates field dressings if you are an officer in the field, but if you are at an entrenchment or base, why wouldn't they have medical facilities or capabilities there?

[Wolfe]

but if you are at an entrenchment or base,
why wouldn't they have medical facilities or capabilities there?

Because we're fighting on the front lines where only temporary emergency care is available. Bunkers and firebases are temporary forward reinforcement positions, not "main" bases where medical facilities would be in use.

Beyond the abstract representation of assets on each map, the entire game is all about teamwork and I agree with the previous poster: don't reward players for not doing what they should already be doing.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Because we're fighting on the front lines where only temporary emergency care is available. Bunkers and firebases are temporary forward reinforcement positions, not "main" bases where medical facilities would be in use.

If your team has already taken over a flag and put down a bunker, that essentially becomes your base or forward operating position because you have taken over the flag and the area surrounding it, it isn't the front lines. The front lines, if they even exist in modern warfare, would be further out in the field where individual squads operate. It is not just recreating a medical facility, but also a spot where there is a lul in the battle to be healed and cared for and a place you have to go back to for medical care if your squad is hit out side of the base area or flag area.

Beyond the abstract representation of assets on each map, the entire game is all about teamwork and I agree with the previous poster: don't reward players for not doing what they should already be doing.

How is it not rewarding players? Bunkers and Firebases don't build themselves, they need 4 factors (CO, SL, squad members, location), so this is just rewarding them even more. Are you telling me that doesn't require teamwork?

[Darkpowder]

i do not think firebases should heal, it removes the teamwork aspect of a medic.

Its a bit too vanilla, and without specific medic stations as deployables - aka ArmA i wouldn't be happy with it.

Unlimited healing from cabinets, no thanks. Its just another vanilla technique to encourage the rush to objective without consolidation, the need to carry or resupply ammo or the healing of your troops and rush to another objective.

I have always liked the concept of medic stations, personally i think that using vehicles with medics deployed inside them in safe locations, and you jump in to create the similar effect (on lots of passengers simultaneously) is more effective and still under used.

Quite simply, telling the squad as the medic to "come to you" when hurt at all, and warning individuals when they are looking hurt does the job without the need to code game changes.

[Waaah_Wah]

You can already get healed in bunkers/firebases. Why do you want the game to do it for you?

[AnRK]

I think people are looking at this from a very vanilla like way, in which simply being in the bunker would heal them. I think what fortune is advocating is some sort of medic box that you have click on, or a related way of healing which requires the player dedicating their time to being healed. Not a system that allows people to spam fir out the window while getting medical care. Just seems like that's what some people are making of it.

Obviously that's not an argument against people who think it's a medics job, but you already have unlimited bandages from being in a bunker anyway, so having this in game would remove most of the bandage spam you get in bunkers.

[Masaq]

I don't buy the "if you're lucky enough to get a medic in your squad" bit either.

Frankly, balls to that.

If you're the squad leader, you order somebody, to take medic. Either you say:

"Next man dead - medic"
"PlayerName, when you die you ARE coming back medic"

or even better, right at the start of the round, you say:
"No-one's getting any limited kits until I have two volunteers for medic".



If you're not the SL and your squad has no medic kits, it's even easier to fix.

Suck it up and go medic yourself.

[kilroy0097]

I have to throw my support 100% behind M.Warren's post above. I agree with everything he said including Medics need more smoke. They also need 2 more med packs due to the bug of the squad members getting stuck in the ground or on objects when they die. The only thing medic can do to revive them is to throw a medic pack on them to dislodge them. Additional Medic Packs become a work around a bug in the engine and not necessarily more useful to heal faster although that can be a dual purpose. I do not agree that Medics need scopes. Concentrate on healing and spotting not providing optical fire support. You have other squad members that should be doing that for you and you have smoke to obscure open field crossfire. When I play medic I do not have an issue with the rifle. I have issue with not having enough Smoke nor Med Packs.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I think people are looking at this from a very vanilla like way, in which simply being in the bunker would heal them. I think what fortune is advocating is some sort of medic box that you have click on, or a related way of healing which requires the player dedicating their time to being healed. Not a system that allows people to spam fir out the window while getting medical care. Just seems like that's what some people are making of it.

Obviously that's not an argument against people who think it's a medics job, but you already have unlimited bandages from being in a bunker anyway, so having this in game would remove most of the bandage spam you get in bunkers.

^^^^^^^Yea



[quote=""'[R-MOD"]Masaq;678225']I don't buy the "if you're lucky enough to get a medic in your squad" bit either.

Frankly, balls to that.

If you're the squad leader, you order somebody, to take medic. Either you say:

"Next man dead - medic"
"PlayerName, when you die you ARE coming back medic"

or even better, right at the start of the round, you say:
"No-one's getting any limited kits until I have two volunteers for medic".[/quote]

That's easy to say on here, but when I ask for a medic and everyone goes silent, even in tournament matches, it says something. Is telling the squad "no one is getting limited kits until I have a medic" going to work since you cannot physically watch over them? No. Having someone go medic who doesn't play it often or even likes it is like having someone play SL who doesn't want to. They don't know what they have to do and it may end up being less helpful them that player in another class. And like I have been playing, a scope would make the medic class more appealing in general.

Why should the medic only be limited to close range combat? If someone says "he will be too busy fighting then healing", I could say your medic is not disiplined enough or knows what he is doing, like many are saying here.

If you're not the SL and your squad has no medic kits, it's even easier to fix.

Suck it up and go medic yourself.

Read what I wrote above. Would you want someone to suck it up and go SL? No, and medic requires almost as much skill and thinking as SL.


[quote="kilroy0097""]I have to throw my support 100% behind M.Warren's post above. I agree with everything he said including Medics need more smoke. They also need 2 more med packs due to the bug of the squad members getting stuck in the ground or on objects when they die. The only thing medic can do to revive them is to throw a medic pack on them to dislodge them. Additional Medic Packs become a work around a bug in the engine and not necessarily more useful to heal faster although that can be a dual purpose. I do not agree that Medics need scopes. Concentrate on healing and spotting not providing optical fire support. You have other squad members that should be doing that for you and you have smoke to obscure open field crossfire. When I play medic I do not have an issue with the rifle. I have issue with not having enough Smoke nor Med Packs.[/quote]

I could argue that you should have members throwing smoke instead of giving medics extra smokes as well, though I am for extra smokes and it wouldn't hurt to give them more smokes and more patches, but it won't change much about the medic tactics.

And how can medics spot when they have no scope? Sure, they could take out their binocs, but they are likely to get shot if they stand up and are not able to return fire like someone with a scope could.

If everyone on the battlefield has a scope and the medic is fighting on the frontlines, why shouldn't he? He is not like an engineer who is usually behind the thick of it and building. Just because he has a scope doesn't mean he will be fighting instead of healing, it just means he will be able to take out that enemy sniping or shooting at you from afar before moving in to heal you.

[fuzzhead]

I think giving medics 4 smoke nades and 6 field dressing (1 for each member of squad) is a good change...

Giving medics scopes - well that opens a whole new can of worms. Right now, when a squad member spawns, 70-80% of the time its as a rifleman with optics. And that is intentional, we WANT more standard rifleman as that is what the bulk of an infantry unit consists of IRL. Giving medic a scope may upset this whole balance.

Im not saying the idea should be disregarded completely, because yes in todays conflicts NATO armies have mostly all gone to scopes/reflex sites. But it is a change that will heavily affect gameplay and many many other changes will be needed in order to consider this, you would basically have to completely look over the entire kit limiting system and every kit available in game. I dont think were ready to do that for v0.8.

[kilroy0097]

^^^
I suppose the only option might be to remove the non-optical rifleman kit, add a medic with scope kit and engineer with a scope kit. Though that means everyone gets scopes and the whole argument of no scopes goes quiet. I don't know how that would effect balance as a whole.

Though I suppose then everyone will start bitching that grenadiers don't have scopes. You can't win for trying really.

I personally whole heartedly support the removal of the non-optic rifleman. I really see no point to not have a scope with that kit as they provide primary cover fire and are the main combat infantryman. Looks at just basic kits and not request kits I see a squad normally made up of Officer, Medic and 4 Rifleman. That's 5 scoped rifles and one non-scoped that is covering the rear or sticking close to the Officer.

A medic should ask for cover fire. "Man Down! Did you see where the shots came from? 85 degrees on the hill East. Need cover fire!" Medic throws smoke to obscure dying man and runs out there as his squad gives him cover fire. Throws medic pack down, revives gets immediate heal from pack and they both run to cover. Medic heals soldier fully. Squad continues operations.

Doesn't that sound like something a bit more realistic? And isn't realism the whole point of this mod? Another thing people don't seem to understand is a Medic doesn't have to revive everyone. If the situation is too dangerous to revive then don't revive them. Or else you will have a dead soldier and a dead medic and both have to respawn.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I think giving medics 4 smoke nades and 6 field dressing (1 for each member of squad) is a good change...

Giving medics scopes - well that opens a whole new can of worms. Right now, when a squad member spawns, 70-80% of the time its as a rifleman with optics. And that is intentional, we WANT more standard rifleman as that is what the bulk of an infantry unit consists of IRL. Giving medic a scope may upset this whole balance.

That's why you make it either limited to 2 per squad or see how it goes initially. I don't believe everyone is suddenly going to go medic because they will lose nades, ammo ressuply, and some magazines. And rifleman aren't exactly supposed to be really plentiful in a squad either. A perfect squad makeup would be something like this for example

Officer/SL
Automatic Rifleman
Light AT
Heavy AT/Light AT
Medic/Corpsman
Rifleman or another medic if you are at a base with ammo

And all of those kits are still very appealing to players for some reason or another, so everyone will not magically jump to medic. It is not like we should give medics nades, instant healing abilities, or a rocket or something.

Im not saying the idea should be disregarded completely, because yes in todays conflicts NATO armies have mostly all gone to scopes/reflex sites. But it is a change that will heavily affect gameplay and many many other changes will be needed in order to consider this, you would basically have to completely look over the entire kit limiting system and every kit available in game. I dont think were ready to do that for v0.8.

Even if medic was not limited and it probably doesn't even need to be, all the other kits out there are just as appealing and are needed to keep a squad alive. PR has natural checks and balances and if a whole squad decided to go medic on a map with armor or vehicles, they would get wiped out frequently. Urban maps? They wouldn't have any nades at all and would get fragged to death. Some will say that he should be healing instead of fighting, but I say if he cannot go from fighting to healing immediately, he would probably not be the medic anyway with or without these changes and it shows "bad squad control" as some might say.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

^^^
I suppose the only option might be to remove the non-optical rifleman kit, add a medic with scope kit and engineer with a scope kit. Though that means everyone gets scopes and the whole argument of no scopes goes quiet. I don't know how that would effect balance as a whole.

Though I suppose then everyone will start bitching that grenadiers don't have scopes. You can't win for trying really.

Engineer shouldn't have a scope because they are not at the front usually, they are constructing, moving with armor or vehicle crews, and they just need their weapons for personal defense basically. A medic is moving with and operating a squad and isn't a lone wolf class like engineer generally is either.

And the grenadier kit will eventually have a scope too. The models for the other three haven't been finished yet, only China has one.

I personally whole heartedly support the removal of the non-optic rifleman. I really see no point to not have a scope with that kit as they provide primary cover fire and are the main combat infantryman. Looks at just basic kits and not request kits I see a squad normally made up of Officer, Medic and 4 Rifleman. That's 5 scoped rifles and one non-scoped that is covering the rear or sticking close to the Officer.

A medic should ask for cover fire. "Man Down! Did you see where the shots came from? 85 degrees on the hill East. Need cover fire!" Medic throws smoke to obscure dying man and runs out there as his squad gives him cover fire. Throws medic pack down, revives gets immediate heal from pack and they both run to cover. Medic heals soldier fully. Squad continues operations.

Ironsight rifleman kit is basically just an alt choice on CQB maps.
A medic should do everything you said if he is good or quick enough, but there is no reason why he shouldn't be shooting back at the enemy while he is waiting for someone to go down or get hit, especially on huge maps like Kashan or Qwai where people are not killed from long range engagements as much.

Doesn't that sound like something a bit more realistic? And isn't realism the whole point of this mod? Another thing people don't seem to understand is a Medic doesn't have to revive everyone. If the situation is too dangerous to revive then don't revive them. Or else you will have a dead soldier and a dead medic and both have to respawn.

That happens a lot in this game because either the medics can't revive, gets killed, passes the friendly by because he couldn't find or didn't care, or he was headshot.