Away with the TV guided missles

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-08 00:50

In another thread about dust kickup I wanted to place this vid: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... gunship%22

After watching it I realized that the cobra's in those videos all use laser guided missles rather than TV guided missles. It would be really cool if you guys could replace the current system with one similar to what the fighter/bombers carry where the gunner would use a laser to paint a target and to track it also.

With this a gun could also be used in the black and white laser screen. This way, the gunner could aim bellow the chopper and the fake "no cockpit" view could be done away with.

It would also be nice if the player could zoom with his camera like the ground armor can.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-03-08 00:54

This is the video I thought you meant to post in the other thread

.

It does show the dust well here, though I think to make that in the BF2 engine would be difficult if not impossible (while looking that good and playing well).

Agreed on the missiles, guns and zoom.

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-03-08 00:55

Been discussing that in this thread a little

http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread. ... 748&page=5

My problem with it is one of realism! I think if such an idea is brought in the painting should only be done by 1/2 players in a team, decided by a 'commander' figure and the use of Laser Guided missiles must only be from distances and angles that would be realistic....got a book on that somewhere - but from memory its all on cones that the laser designation gives out.

Essentially - if they get put in they gotta be realistic not jsut ultimate methods of death. And only 1 or 2 can have them otherwise the pilots/gunners have way too much choice and don't know which are good/bad

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-03-08 00:59

The Hellfire and TOW missiles used in that video are laser-guided by the gunner, the TOWs would (I believe) follow whereever the crosshair is aimed and the Hellfires (as seen on the righthand side of the screen) require the crosshair to sit on the target (designating it (represented by DES in the video)) before firing and apparently stay on the target until it hits.

So too many options would only be a problem if the gunner sees multiple targets.

Though maybe the Hellfires can be designated by ground troops as well?

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-03-08 01:10

Oh sorry - I thought you were referring to troops on the ground painting targets etc - sorry again.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-03-08 01:18

No problem, again laser designation (from ground troops) might be possible with Hellfires, I'm not sure.

But it would definitely be an option for laser guided bombs that could be designated by ground troops. In which case I agree, this sort of ability needs to be limited to certain troops.

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-03-08 01:23

'[R-PUB wrote:BrokenArrow']No problem, again laser designation (from ground troops) might be possible with Hellfires, I'm not sure.

But it would definitely be an option for laser guided bombs that could be designated by ground troops. In which case I agree, this sort of ability needs to be limited to certain troops.

Hellfires (after 3rd Gen) no longer use laser guidance - instead they use radio frequency seeking radar.

And bombs can't be used because height it really important - as is the cone idea, a 'cone' is created from within which the bomb is released. Obviously at a low altitude the window to release the bomb in this cone is less - at a higher altitude it easier and more used

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-03-08 01:38

Ah, I see. Well, in the case of bombs, that just means planes would have to be used closer to the way they are used in real life, rather than the low level flying you see now.

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-09 02:21

'[R-PUB wrote:BrokenArrow']
So too many options would only be a problem if the gunner sees multiple targets.

I disagree, though I am not basing this on any facts. I only base my view on the fact that these laser targeting computer systems and missles are insanely expensive. The idea of all this money spent on equipment that can only target a lone vehicle seems just unrealistic to me.

Like I said, I'm not basing this on facts, just on the fact that it seems illogical to create such a limited weapon.

Sgt. Jarvis · Post by **Sgt. Jarvis** » 2006-03-09 02:39

Hmm, I think it would be sweet to have the cobra gunner have zoom with the x key with the 20mm and also be able to have the tow lazer guided view in a different view, I wonder if it was able to be zoomed aswell, well, would be cool to have.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-09 18:01

while all these suggestions are nice, i hope the mod will also include a bit of modification for the map to ensure that tankers don't get hunted down to extinction.

for one thing i'd like an improved smoke that is denser than what it is and slightly better coverage, second it is also nice if we can get some more rubble or buildings on some of the map parts so the tanks can actually run and hide when these death gunships come along and start hunting tanks like hungry mouse.

EON_MagicMan · Post by **EON_MagicMan** » 2006-03-09 18:31

That would be cool if passenger gunning in the attack Helos were done with a TV-missile style view. The zoom would be pretty cool, too.

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-03-09 18:32

Zepheris Casull wrote:while all these suggestions are nice, i hope the mod will also include a bit of modification for the map to ensure that tankers don't get hunted down to extinction.

for one thing i'd like an improved smoke that is denser than what it is and slightly better coverage, second it is also nice if we can get some more rubble or buildings on some of the map parts so the tanks can actually run and hide when these death gunships come along and start hunting tanks like hungry mouse.

Im for that (althogh i am a helicopter whore myself) Why would i want to play in a helicopter if its too easy to kill everythink. Me and my brother uste to play BF2 together in a chopper, i fly and he pwns everythink with the cannon and TV guided missiles, co-ordination was limitles because we played in the same room and althogh we felt invincable we were easy targets for anythink as most of the time we were hovering so the TV guided missles could be fired, mabey the pilot should have no weapon and the secondary crew man sould control them?

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-10 03:39

Why shouldn't good coordination be rewarded? We shouldn't nerf choppers just because tanks would be blow to peices by them because in real life that's one of their primary purposes(the choppers I meen). The pilot should also be armed with unguided rockets, though I don't think these penetrate the armor of a mbt in real life.

Maybe, to compensate for this, choppers should either be slower to rearm and repair, or they could take even longer to respawn. Either way though, atack choppers are very deadly and should be portrayed as such.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-10 11:57

They are very deadly indeed, but they aren't used in the way they r being used in BF2 ever... a gunship don't prowl into close range to a tank... that's practically suicide. Many MBTs are meant to be able to engage low flying rotor craft and as far as i recall, thoose 57 mm hydra rockets can't penetrate MBT armour, but they can damage equipment such as sensors and tracks.

And i am not asking for a gunship nerf, i am asking for a better defense for the tank. Tanks smoke screen are supposed to disperse faster and provide denser smoke than the one i've seen in the game, although some MBTs use different smoke composition. And with phosporus smoke IR sensors should be blind against it.

The reason i also asked for more cover is because a lot of the maps have a very large open ground on it stretching for quite a long distance. In real world, traversing that in a tank with no air cover is suicide, but unfortunately setting up an air cover in BF2 is just not effective. So ur effectively asking tankers to traverse a good 2 or 3 minutes of open ground at the mercy of any prowling gunship. A good gunship pilot should be able to kill an MBT by setting up his plan and strike using his long range AT missile but a good tankers should also know how to deal with these if there's immediate cover available, so what i am asking is to give this option and the chance for tankers to save themself from certain death.

maccis · Post by **maccis** » 2006-03-10 19:22

What about TOW missiles on the back of a Humvee? http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m998.htm
this would help a squad that does not have AT support.

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-10 19:55

Zepheris Casull wrote: And i am not asking for a gunship nerf, i am asking for a better defense for the tank. Tanks smoke screen are supposed to disperse faster and provide denser smoke than the one i've seen in the game, although some MBTs use different smoke composition. And with phosporus smoke IR sensors should be blind against it.

I totally agree zepheris. Not only does smoke need to be improved, but so does the tanks armor itself. I posted earlier that tank health should go up dramatically and so should the damage that tank shells and AT missles do. This way damage from weapons like that of the apc cannon and of the copters 57mm rockets would only do minimal damage. The tank shells and AT missles on the other hand should destroy pretty much anything other than an mbt in one hit. I made a whole thread about this at some point http://realitymod.com/forum/t4182-uppin ... ealth.html.

Anyway's, if the choppers got laser guided missles with a camera capable of zooming, then choppers wouldn't have to go tow to tow with tanks. Their roles would be used more real and they would be far more deadly for it. One thing that could help balance this would be if stinger troops could be made and if anti air missles instantly set choppers on fire with one hit.

[CW]_Dalton · Post by **[CW]_Dalton** » 2006-03-10 23:59

Just clarifying what a TOW is, there is NO laser involved:
Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided missile (TOW)
a link for you:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-71.html
Please note:
Minimum range for the TOW is about 65 m (70 yds), and maximum range is limited by the length of the guidance wire, which is 3000 m (3280 yds) later models (3750 m (4100 yds))

Would it be possible to implement a minimum range?

Ghost33 · Post by **Ghost33** » 2006-03-11 00:25

lonelyjew wrote:I posted earlier that tank health should go up dramatically and so should the damage that tank shells and AT missles do. This way damage from weapons like that of the apc cannon and of the copters 57mm rockets would only do minimal damage. The tank shells and AT missles on the other hand should destroy pretty much anything other than an mbt in one hit.

I like that idea a lot, but I would suggest with the capability to take anything out in the game with one hit save another tank, that you should have maybe a 1.5-2 sec delay from when you press fire and the tank fires. sort of simulating turret lock on, range, and various other things I'm sure a tank has to do to fire. I could be totally wrong but I don't think a tank can pop around a corner and instantly fire its cannon at an enemy vehicle.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 2006-03-11 00:49

I think that the whole chopper system should be revamped. Does a pilot really have control of the hydras? I think that the attack chopper should only become a gunship when there's a gunner.