Iron Site view Vehicle MG / Cluster Bombs

[kilroy0097]

Edit added 2008-05-26:
Please ignore the discussion on Iron Sight and AA reticle. This was brought back up to concentrate on Cluster Bomb possibilities and discussions.

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After many hours now playing PR 0.7 I realize there are many bugs that need to be worked out and I'm happy and yet eagerly waiting their fixes. I do have two suggestions or requests.

1. Iron Site viewpoint on Vehicle MG.

I have noticed that you are able to Right Click for the MG or Miniguns on helicopters however every time I attempt to do the same for the deployable AA guns or the MG on the light squad vehicles (Humvee, Vodnik, etc.) nothing happens. I don't know if this was intended or forgotten. The inability to even know where your shooting except by tracking the tracer rounds across the path is a bit unneeded. I know that option existed in VBF2. Was there a reason to take it out? As easy as it is to shoot someone out of a top mounted vehicle weapon I don't see it being too easy to add this option back in.

2. Cluster Bombs - Viable alternative to ineffective JDAM.

First my justification for asking for another method of ordinance.
I've seen the JDAM dropped on various maps and have come to the conclusion that unless the JDAM is used tactically against only targets in open flat terrain that it's generally ineffective again forces that are near structures or terrain inclines such as hills or mountain. The limit of the explosion is that any and all damage that is done goes out and stopped immediately at static objects. Obviously we can't make all objects in the game destroyable in the BF2 engine so that's a very damaging limiting factor. Especially when you think of the real life usage of the JDAM which is to take out enemy bunkered or operating out of buildings, bunkers and other structures. So the inability for it to do exactly as it was designed to do is very limiting. Example: I was at ground zero when a JDAM was dropped on a bunker we had built. I was in the construction building perhaps less than 50m or so from the bunker. I was on the 3rd floor. I heard the boom, I saw the explosion and the smoke filled the entire area. The bunker and all immediate targets on the same level as it were destroyed. Everything behind static objects or at higher elevation were unhurt. Except for a blurry vision for a bit I took zero damage being less than 50m away. Something is wrong with that.

So I propose alternative modern day strike mission ordinance.

Cluster Bombs.

They can be delivered the same way as a JDAM. The same sound effects can be used. A different area of effect on the map (The Red circle marker icon) can demonstrate the use of cluster bomb over using a JDAM. The area effected would be slightly larger as artillery in VBF2. But instead of a single very large explosion there would be many multiple smaller explosions. This would make the death area much larger for infantry and light vehicles but it may not kill a tank. Against a bunkered and defended position this would be exactly what may be needed to eliminate all infantry and light vehicles in an area allowing friendlies to quickly move in and take control.

The closest idea I could come up with is more an Anti-Personnel direction which would have an effect similar to many grenades spawning above the necessary area and then being dropped and exploding as normal. The actual real life bomb holds about 650 of these explosive devices in one delivery. This may or may not be too many. It would depend on experimentation of it in the engine. You could even have 5 specific points in the diameter of the munition drop be the spawn points. If each point spawns about 30 grenade objects together that would be 150 grenade like explosions on the area. All open static objects (doorways, bunkers, windows etc) would have damage at entrances. The top of all objects would be covered taking out top levels. Stairwells may have explosive devices fall down them and explode on lower levels. The effect on all horizontal services open to the sky is obvious.

In my view this would be a much more effective munitions against infantry and light vehicles. If you wish you could include two or three objects of higher explosive AP qualities that would heavily damage APCs and Tanks as well. Since you can set the explosive quality, penetration and level of each of the "grenade" like devices, you can make it as destructive or ineffective as you want. As there are many objects spread out over a wide area you do not have the limiting effect factor of the JDAM.

Also a reminder that another suggestion was brought up about the JDAM being downgraded to a 500lb JDAM and having the recharge time to use JDAMs lowered to a quarter of it's current time. It's already listed in the suggestion list but it's also a viable alternative to the current issues of the JDAM.

Cheers.

[ZaZZo]

1. Already ingame, press C.

2. I agree

[zangoo]

satnav made a cluster bomb, the code is in pr. i think his emmits like 200 bomblets.

[kilroy0097]

Press C for zoom? Awesome. I couldn't for the life of me figure it out and every time I asked in game no one seemed to know. Thank you! Now I can pass along the knowledge. But that does bring up the question, "Why can't it be Right Click like it is on helicopters and hand held weapons?". Seems odd to make it different just for vehicle mounted MGs.

Satnav made a Cluster Bomb already? 200 bomblets? I beg the Devs to include this option under commander options in addition to the smaller JDAM call request. I implore the Devs to give players another option such as this. I feel it would dramatically increase the usefulness of calling in an air strike.

Thank you for listening.

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

Press C for zoom? Awesome. I couldn't for the life of me figure it out and every time I asked in game no one seemed to know. Thank you!

PR Manual, page 25:

Vehicles with mounted machine guns allow for aiming using the sights
by pressing the change camera key (default: C)

I wish there were more people reading manual

[Bob_Marley]

Cluster Bombs have indeed been put into BF2 by Satnav.

However, last time I heard there was a problem with the cluster bomb's relationship with BF2's netcode, which means it only works in single player. These problems may be worked out in the future, but for the time being cluster bombs appear to be beyond the dev's grasp.

[hall0]

OPK has already Clusterbombs in and it works in Multiplayer.

link

[kilroy0097]

For the record I did read the manual and wiki. You can't expect everyone to remember everything. I just couldn't find it for some reason when I looked again. Sorry.

Above link on Clusterbombs... OMG. *swoon*

[Sgt_Canadian_Floss]

hall0
Isnt a cluster bomb a single bomb dropped that later separates in midair in other bombs. Because in the vid, it looks like they are spraying insectacide.

[BloodBane611]

A cluster bomb is a large canister containing a number of "bomblets", basically different charges based on what the purpose is. They can be used for cratering runways (specifically designed shaped charges), anti-armor or anti-infantry (shaped or unshaped charges), and I believe mining. I think that introducing a cluster bomb to replace the JDAM is an excellent idea, as it will solve the basic problems listed in the original post.

Of course it might create more, but that's the way of things.

BTW thanks for the info Hallo. I did not know about that.

[BLUFOR-73]

heres a better example of a bf2 cluster bomb:

YouTube - clusterbomb for BF2

[zangoo]

hmm, well if you make the cluster bomb emit the f1grenade, then it should work fine.

[Artnez[US]]

Wow that last vid is awesome.. get into PR!!

[DJJ-Terror]

well we all would like to se proper cluster bomb (like satnavs) but it dosent work in multiplayer. netcode is not working.

so only way to make it work online is for plane to drop 20-30 hendgranades at once (like that OPK mod has done).

Wich is something i would like to see in PR as well...

[kilroy0097]

One thing I would have love to see in BF eventually is vectored controlled strafing and bombing run requests. The ability for a squad leader to pick the center point of the run and then swivel the vector or choose the vector start. So that runs can come in from a certain direction. Would do very well in situations where you want to clear a street or lane between buildings of mountains and don't want silly bombs to hit random buildings.

This could be used to help player flown planes and helicopters get to their target efficiently and also could be used perhaps on a future type of commander asset.

Maybe one day.

Now I don't know exactly what the BF2 code can do nor do I know exactly how artillery works (I suspect it's an object that is spawned in the air and given a vector and speed and then given a certain explosive value when it hits an object and is destroyed). But if the engine can spawn single objects in the air such as artillery and bring it down then technically the same could be done with a cluster bomb. The problem being that there would be 50 or so smaller objects shooting to the ground from up above. I don't know if that would lag the game or suddenly crash it due to too many objects. Just an idea.

[kilroy0097]

One other question. Nothing in the guide nor the wiki show that the Commander deployed AA has any sort of aiming reticle. Was this on purpose or an oversight? I can't think of any AA guns that wouldn't have some sort of aiming system.

[BloodBane611]

The huge stream of tracers is what lets you aim. Also, you should know where the center of the screen is, at least in a general sense.

One thing I would have love to see in BF eventually is vectored controlled strafing and bombing run requests.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Maybe in BF25.

[MACDRE]

heres a better example of a bf2 cluster bomb:

YouTube - clusterbomb for BF2

Jesus.

If we could get that implemented into multiplayer games, it'd be awesome.

I mean, while playing on Zatar, we set up a bunker in between a cluster of buildings at farm, a JDAM was dropped, and out of the 10 people in the area, 2 died and a few supply trucks blew up. One tank, eight people, and a bunker was spared. A complete waste of a JDAM.

[kilroy0097]

Bump for Cluster Bomb discussion. Please ignore discussion on Iron Sights and AA reticle.

[maverick551]

If its possible, I would love to see a cluster bomb added to the A-10/Frog. Would be a great addition, Hope the devs can work something out with the network lag issues.