Modern use of minefields

[Tartantyco]

-Having served as a Combat Engineer I disapprove greatly with the way mines are used in PR as it is hardly realistic and removes a lot of strategic and tactical elements, as well as opportunities for teamwork. However, I don't have a good idea of how to more realistically portray the use of mines in PR so while I'm thinking a little I'll just share with you how they are actually used.


-In modern warfare the role of mines/minefields is rarely to destroy/incapacitate enemy vehicles, but rather to deny access. In accordance with international conventions anti-personnel mines are illegal and minefields are to be clearly marked and mapped as mines kill indiscriminately, are on the whole ineffective at killing enemy soldiers or destroying vehicles(In relation to other methods), kill mostly civilians, and make land unusable for decades.

-Minefields are to be clearly marked with bright tape surrounding the area and signs at regular intervals. Minefields come in several "flavors," including, but not limited to, full minefields with a large amount of mines covering the entire field, either on the ground or buried(These take a long time to deploy and use up a lot of material but means the enemy will take a long time clearing a passage), minefields with few mines scattered across the field(Using up less material to deny access but can be breached more quickly), and dummy minefields where only the marking has been set up(Little material used but will be breached quickly).
-They often have at least one passage going through them for friendly units to pass through and these are marked with easily removable markings to quickly remove any trace of it. In addition they will be covered, at the very least with MGs, as Combat Engineers can quickly clear a passage through an undefended minefield.

-The main purpose of minefields is to deny access to an area(Flanks, strategic locations, etc.) or funnel enemy units into certain areas where they will be at a disadvantage.
-Mines are often fitted with anti-handling devices that detonate them if they are opened or moved, some have booby traps underneath or integrated into them and many booby traps mimic standard mines which are intended to kill deminers. As such the standard procedure is to destroy mines on site instead of defusing or moving them(With explosives or .50 cal sniper rifles). Various tools are used, from metal detectors to simple prods, to locate mines but this is very time consuming and so other alternatives such as Mine Clearing Explosives are also used which are long ropes either partly or completely filled with explosives, varying in range from 25 to 150m for quick passage clearance through minefields.

[[PR]CATA.Mobius]

Trouble is, with the limited scope of Project Reality, it's impossible to muster enough mines or minelayers for a large area denial type minefield. Instead, the only truly effective use of mines in the game is for immediate tactical area denial (such as blocking off a single road or on-ramp) or as an ad-hoc close range anti-tank weapon.

[Tartantyco]

-Well, I'm thinking some kind of CO asset that would be deployed and built by engineers. Right now it's a bit to akward but I'll try to refine it.

(Maybe I should have posted this in the suggestions forum...)

[[PR]CATA.Mobius]

It sounds plausible, although I'd definitely consult with a developer on its in-game feasibility.

[Tirak]

If it's a CO deployed asset though, is it possible to deploy multiple objects that are independant of eachother in the way that the CO Asset system works currently? I like the idea, but let the Engies keep their mines too.

[Ghostrider]

(Maybe I should have posted this in the suggestions forum...)

Done.

Your idea sounds good; it would be nice for engineer-type classes to deploy/clear mine fields. Instead of deploying individual mines they could be able to mine areas which could show up in friendly minimaps (sort of like rally points).

The fields could be made to explode when anyone goes through them or they could be tagged/changed to terrain that is not accessible, so vehicles and players cant go through without clearing it first.



~xghost();

[3===SPECTER===3]

Its kind of like how FH2 sets up static minefields on their maps.

[Waaah_Wah]

One engineer can set up 8 mines and they will last for 10 min. To me thats good enough If you get some guy to ressuply you, you can lay down a whole lot of mines in an area

[gclark03]

Perhaps we should allow the Commander to place 3 mines in a diamond formation. These mines would stick to the ground, like Field Dressings, but be just as visible as a current landmine. With shovels, these Commander minefields would be conveniently hidden below the ground and marked with a special smoke grenade, much like the old order marker grenades from Vanilla.

[Viper5]

Perhaps something like a CO Deployable Minefield (about 15 mines in a staggered column covering ~15m) that must be shoveled/wrench to make active?

[IAJTHOMAS]

You could just create a flaged area which has a fairly high % chance of death to vehicle that some how has to wrenched after deployment to symbolise engies mine laying. Only issue is the removal of it...

Maybe limit them to x number per map, CO or SL placeable and also keep the engineer mine option as is.

Maybe not the most realistic implimentation, but maybe simpler and simulates the area denial well. Also has the advantage of allowing the simulation of many mines without the increased objects on the map.

Just an alternative i thought i'd put out there.

EDIT: beat me to it Similar idea.

[=(DK)=stoffen_tacticalsup]

GREAT IDEA!
I also think it would be nice with CO asset mines. It is very realistic indeed, as such my concern is purely gameplaywise. According to their sieze, minefields will end up as the most valuable asset in the game. Imagine a minefield straight on a CP in EJOD or the like. Though I could definetively see it in maps such as Kashan, or Ghost.
Maybe the criterias for deploying minefields could be the same as firebases or so?
One of my other thoughts are that wheter they should be visible or not? (ie, burried, some part of it showing(like motion Censor, dunno if eksists), or totally visible when deployed(like the Standard mine)?
I think it is a great idea, as I presume that a cirkular minefield is pretty easy to construct (ie mod), and would provide an ekstremely valuable asset in particularly maps like Kashan(64), somehow compensating for the needs of defensive sq's (to a certain degree), and thereby it is plausible to commit more assets (ie troops) to more realistic assaults that we have yet to see in PR (it is indeed rare to see a fully Mechanized assault with a couple of apc's with full sq's inside and a number of support assets such as MBT's AC's etc) My point is, as a commander, I could make countermesures to hostile assaults while redeploying my units to take on assault duties. In short terms, it makes for a better way of exploring aggresive expansion tactics for me as a commander. Not to mention that you can make some really mean fortified FOP/B's.
My only concern is that it would be too powerfull.

Compensation by ajudsting size to map (fx 64m diameter in 64maps, 32m in 32 maps etc) and have a fixed time you need to spend on laying a minefield, nomatter size. And then of cause you need to wrench-it a loong time before operational. That way it would have less of an impact on games on small maps. Wrench time could be 15-20mins for a single eingineer. Dunno if this is realistic. That would also give a balance since you as the commander need to commit a lot of manpower to make the minefields worth anything as a single eingineer making minefields in Kashan is perhaps a bit usesless. Yes you would have to make a mine detector for eingineers.

Combine that with some sort of motar system and we have moved on in our efforts to emply realism. Could be done with the BF2 arty system, deployed again as CO assets, with a less concentrated barrage,more scatter of the actual rounds, and of course a fixed range (short). "Call in motar support". We really need the intire aspect of artillery in PR. Mobile field guns must come around sometime. If anyone remembers, or knows, the system for using that in BF Vietnam, that could be developed. But that makes for a new topic

Sorry for long read, sorry for spelling errors. Please discuss

[=(DK)=stoffen_tacticalsup]

Sorry for repeating, beat me to it too.

[Raniak]

Mine deploying vehicles. Model would be a 5 ton truck with mines in the back. Drivable by engineers only.

Right click to drop mine (like the supply crates). Could need to be "armed" by an engineer so the truck don't explode on it's own minefield.

[Tirak]

I like Raniak's suggestion better than just a general area that if vehicles go in they die, gives the enemy a chance to try and drive through the field or disarm them.

[=(DK)=stoffen_tacticalsup]

Perhaps. But a commandruck with 2 tones worth of mines zooming about, mining everywhere is just plain crazy. Good luck getting out of you main base. But I quite like the concept Sneak up from behind that MBT, and "drive by" placing a mine in front of him Xp. Is that realistic?

[Waaah_Wah]

Would it be possible to let engineers lay more than 8 mines? If yes, that and the return of the ammo/repair truck would do wonders

[Symplify]

I like Raniak's suggestion, I was going to suggest something similar myself until I read his post. Having a vehicle capable of deploying 8 mines if that is the max, or perhaps 10 if possible.

I'd love to see bouncing betties though

[Cyrax-Sektor]

Would it be possible to let engineers lay more than 8 mines? If yes, that and the return of the ammo/repair truck would do wonders

It's possible to allow more than 8 mines to be placed in the field at any given time. I've modded vanilla to have unlimited C4. It lagged like crazy when I detonated it and CTDed, but not all mines are going to go off, so I say, yes for more mines at one time!

[PrivateJson]

Mine deploying vehicles. Model would be a 5 ton truck with mines in the back. Drivable by engineers only.

Right click to drop mine (like the supply crates). Could need to be "armed" by an engineer so the truck don't explode on it's own minefield.

This is actually how we did it when I was in the army (as an engineer), when we had the time!

This is of course only done way behind the front. I think it would be perfect as a part of the defence some CO's build around flags.

The barded wire is nice, but it doesn't really stop the vehicles from driving though and dropping their load of soldiers off!

As written in the original post of the thread, it wouldn't be a bad idea to mark the field, or the mines (that way the engineer isn't going to blow himself up!). The main objective of the mine-field should be to block enemy access, not to kill.

But I quite like the concept Sneak up from behind that MBT, and "drive by" placing a mine in front of him Xp. Is that realistic?

If it should be realistic (which it should), the mines can only be put down when the truck moves really slow!