Class Suggestion (LENGTHY!)

[Eden]

I dont like snipers, i would never be one unless to try it out. Mabey its time for deletion?

The mod is focusing on a full assault force, not some sniper, recon or special forces guy doing a solo job and snipers get rewarded for being the lone wolf (seldom found before they shoot).... How is that going to incurage teamwork!?

Compleatly disagree, the ammount of times I have saved someones life killing someone sneeking up on my team mate, the ammount of times I have called out a tank again saveing my team mates life from certain death. The Sniper class is very important if used in the right hands.

[Cerberus]

We need snipers in this game for reconnaissance.

Maybe we can have it so supports can't refill them with ammo.

I don't think SAW gunners carry around ammunition for an M40A3

Post #18,000 on Suggestion board, BTW!

[Pence]

We need snipers in this game for reconnaissance.

But again its unlikely anyone will listen too them with all of the unrealistic noobs.

[beta]

Maybe we can have it so supports can't refill them with ammo.

That could work, it would make the Sniper more or less independant (as Sniper Teams usually are) since they could only be re-armed through a supply crate or a supply truck.

I re-evaluated how the flashbangs should be handled, and if the mod will use them, I have them included into this suggestion.

I put only ONE in the Rifleman class so that it is meant for clearing a single room on the attack, the Grenadier has two for the prolonged/multi-room attacks.

I also think that the ammo packs from the Rifleman should only re-arm mags, not any grenades.

I edited the first post to include this stuff.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I think the class system for PRMM should be re-done.

Now, we've got 8 classes, right? Each of them has an unlock, right? So, basically, there are 16 available kits.

I've got a nice long list of my recomendations for those kits:

NOTE: ALL classes have: knife, 2 individual bandages

*REVISION 6*


RIFLEMAN CLASS
----------------
Rifleman - Assualt Rifle - 8 + 1 mags
- 4 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades
- 1 flashbang
- 2 ammo bags

Marksman - Assualt Rifle w/ optics - 8 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 1 ammo bag


SPECIALIST CLASS
------------------
Grenadier - Assualt Rifle w/ grenade launcher - 6 + 1 mags
- 5 + 1 grenades
- 2 flashbangs

Light AT - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 smoke grenades
- 1 Light Anti-Armour Weapon


AUTOMATIC RIFLEMAN CLASS
----------------------------
LMG Gunner - LMG - 2 + 1 box mags

LMG Spotter - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 2 box mag ammo packs
- Binoculars


COMBAT SUPPORT CLASS
------------------------
Combat Medic - Assualt Rifle - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 smoke grenades
- defibulator - 2 + 1 batteries
- 15 bandages

Combat Engineer - Carbine - 6 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- 4 C4 packs
- 2 AT mines
- 2 AP mines


FIRE SUPPORT CLASS
--------------------
Mortar - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable mortar - 9 + 1 rounds
- 1 deployable mortar rearm

HMG - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- deployable HMG - 200 round belt
- 2 deployable HMG rearms


ANTI-VEHICLE CLASS
--------------------
AT - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AT system - 2 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars

AA - PDW - 2 + 1 mags
- portable AA system - 1 + 1 rounds
- Binoculars


PILOT CLASS
------------
Air Crew - Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 RED smoke grenade
- Binoculars

Armour Crew - Pistol - 2 + 1 mags
- 1 GREEN smoke grenade
- Binoculars


RECON CLASS
-------------
Scout - Carbine w/ scope - 4 + 1 mags
- 2 hand grenades
- laser designator

Sniper - Sniper Rifle - 3 + 1 mags
- Binoculars



Now, obviously some of this needs explaining.


Acronyms
---------
LMG = Light Machine Gun
HMG = Heavy Machine Gun
PDW = Personal Defense Weapon
AT = Anti-Tank
AA = Anti-Air
AP = Anti-Personnel
SL = Squad Leader
LGB = Laser Guided Bomb
MLRS = Mobile Rocket Launch System


Some extra Notes:
-----------------

-Air Crew pilot jets and helos
-Ground Crew pilot MBTs, APCs, other armoured vehicles
-Anyone can pilot Transports, HMGs, Mortars
-All kits can be passengers on vehicles (APCs, Helis, etc.)
-Batteries on Defibulators have 5 uses per charge
-Individual bandages are used on the player, no one else
-Combat Medics CANNOT heal themselves with the medic bandages
-Supply Trucks and Supply Crates re-arm all kits (not vehicles)
-Vehicles resupply and repaired at special "stations" (garages, hangars, etc.)
-Rifleman ammo bags DO NOT re-arm LMGs, only re-arms mags, nothing else
-ONLY box mag ammo bags and Supply Crates/Trucks re-arm LMGs
-Both types of ammo bags MUST be dropped to be used
-No wrench, only repairs are done at repair stations
-ALL classes have finite resources, they MUST be resupplied to continue to fight effectively
-Mortar and HMG re-arms work like the wrench, click and hold, 10 seconds to re-arm the HMG, 20 seconds to re-arm the Mortar
-Mortars use the Artillery system (interim until we get some REAL artillery )


MEDIC SYSTEM:
Defibulators revive the player to 25% health, under 50% health lethal bleeding begins. The individual bandage heals to 50%, the medic to 75%. Bandage healing is NOT stackable. To get the player's health to 100%, the player must heal at a medical vehicle/building.

ARTILLERY SYSTEM:
Similar to BF1942's system, artillery's scope has elevation and rotation "meters". When a request is made, coloured (different for each request) lines are displayed on the "meters" to show where the target area is. When the colured lines are put into the middle of each "meter", firing will result in a round on the target area.

LASER DESIGNATOR SYSTEM:
Click to turn it on, wherever it "hits" in the game world (limit to 500m, to prevent problems) will create a "lockable target", like the heat sources (jets, helis, oil flame), except this "lockable target" is used to LGBs and other laser guided munitions. Replace the "dumbfire" bombs on jets with LGBs, they cans till be dropped "blind", but with a laser designator, they will be VERY accurate. This can also be used for missles and rockets fire from MLRS's (and equivalent opposing army systems), and (at least for the US forces) laser guided artillery rounds (the regular "cannon" rounds that is).


Now since I have seen a couple of times the Devs say that Class Restricing is NOT POSSIBLE, I decided to come up with this as an option for a more balanced team. The key is to make a squad need a variety of classes to be the most effective.

For example, say a squad of 6 says "Screw you beta, we're going to have 6 LMG Gunners!", now, they will have an impressive amount of firepower, but no grenades (smoke or frag) and won't be able to heal eachother.

Now this system is far from perfect, it needs some rigorous testing (playtesting and otherwise) to find its flaws, but I think diversifying the classes is the way to go to get a good, balanced system.


Well, that's my idea. Comment.

I don't know, everything listed just seems like it is an alt version of the kits we already have in the game, but just with different names.

For 1, the rifleman you listed is just an assualt class with ammo packs which is not needed at all. You should have to conserve your ammo in the game and use it wisely, but with 9 magazine and extra ammo packs, that just totally throws it out of proportion. 9 seems like the max someone in real life would carry anyway and that is a lot of ammo to weigh you down.

The only thing that sets your rifleman apart from the assualt class is grenades, ammo packs, and flashbangs really. All they would need is 2 hand grenades, since people would spam 4 of them which is not very realistic and because of the M203 and also 2-3 flashbangs for clearing areas.
And giving bandages to individuals decreases teamwork because medics wouldn't have that much of a use anymore and people would just pick a class like support which they would have more of an advantage with.

The marksman is also an assualt classman but only with an optical sight. All they would need to do is make a weapon, such as an M16/optic or M14 with optics for the assualt class and have them pick that. Be just about the same thing.

There is no use for a mortar class either. They were taken out because people spam with them(BFV) and it is basically like a smaller version of artillery. Too many people would just camp with them instead of fight and they are not really a viable option to PR since it is more infantry focused which are fast paced and don't have time to do that sort of thing.

Also, no class really needs binoculars except for Spec Ops or Sniper class or maybe the commander. Not everyone in combat carries binoculars and that defeats part of the purpose of the commander whose job it is to call out enemies out of range.

And your sniper class would carry a sidearm which they need and most do carry as a backup. There is no need for spotters either because that would take even more people away from the battlefield and there really isn't a spot that a sniper is going to stay at long before he is spotted and they have to move again. It is hard to be silent, their job, when you have two players who might not even work together effiently or have VOIP.

The engineer class diffenetly doesn't need a carbine. All they need is a PDW or shotgun for short range because we don't want engineers fighting and that would happen with carbines. Same goes with AT who doesn't need a PDW and instead maybe a higher caliber pistol to stop them from fighting also.

But I do like your suggestion for light AT even though 1 AT rocket isn't going to do much really. Just make them another alt pick/unlock style thing for AT and let them pick the AR if they are going to carry one rocket instead of making a whole nother class which doesn't differ from it.

Recon IRL carries a carbine SOPMOD or one with different features which could be added to spec ops class since they are basically recon, but what you stated is just a weak class. With that many classes we would have too many useless classes in squads now and not enough of balanced ones like we have now.

IMO, there is no need for this much choice except for the different wep and nade loadouts which could be done in teh alt spots used for the unlocks. This is also too many classes even for 64 players due to the fact that most will pick non combat classes like mortarman which doesn't help the team out that much like an assualtman or support gunner.

My 2 cents.

[Cerberus]

ROFL, I can imagine a 32 vs 32 mortarman game... that'd be hilarious.

Solution to too many kits: allow people to select (on the class selection screen) the basic types of solder (rifleman, grenadier, automatic rifleman, rifleman w/ AT-4) and then at the main base, there can be kits that you can pick up, such as sniper, designated marksman, mortar, heavy-machine gun, dedicated anti-armor, etc. These kits would be extremely limited (one or two kits per class at any given time)

[Pence]

For 1, the rifleman you listed is just an assualt class with ammo packs which is not needed at all.

The Ammo Packs must go all together and supply crates sould be used more wisely. Destroying a supply crate sould give your team "Commander asset destruction points"

Also, no class really needs binoculars except for Spec Ops or Sniper class or maybe the commander. Not everyone in combat carries binoculars and that defeats part of the purpose of the commander whose job it is to call out enemies out of range.

I am begining to hate the sniper, Special forces class'es have to be taken out anyway. Binoculars are items that a soldier can request if i remember rightly.

sniper class would carry a sidearm which they need and most do carry as a backup.

No way, snipers with pistols just make them think that they can close in on the enemy. Without pistols, snipers will think twice about were they relocate to.

IMO, there is no need for this much choice

I think every choice exsept the recon class and mortar crew class are worth implementing. More varied kits add to superior squad power compared to an ill thought-out enemy squad.

There is no use for a mortar class either

True, mortar class could be swaped for somethink more usefull, camping mortar guys will just become a liability.

Somethink drastic should be done about the ammo boxes, it would be easyer to take them out.
The Pilot class should be looked at a bit more, im sure helicopter pilots are armed with an MP5 (US chopper pilots anyway).
Mabey an assistant-pilot/aircraft gunner to use all of the weapons (ALL) in the various helicopters, the pilot keeps the helicopter steady and points out enemy targets.
Limiting ammo, especialy pistol ammo is a very good way of makeing players more dependant on his squad.
And if resupply Choppers, Landrovers/HUMM'ers and Lightly armoured vehicals could be made i think that they are the only way of fixing the supply box problem (Apart from crates of corse) but limit this to one per team.

[Cerberus]

I think automatic riflemen should be able to give out, at maximum, 4-6 magazines of M16 or AK47 ammunition, depending on the team. Vehicles, such as HMMWVs, Landrovers, and Vodniks should be the primary option for rearming. They can carry a helluva lot more ammunitation than one person (support gunner).

[Cerberus]

Here's my suggestion for classes
___________________________________________
Rifleman

Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
6 Magazines of Ammunition
4 Fragmentation Grenades
2 Smoke Grenades
1 Breaching Charge
Knife
Body Armor

Grenadier

Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
GL Attachment (GP30, M203)
4 Magazines of Ammunition
4 HE Grenades (launched from GL)
2 Smoke Grenades (launched from GL)
Knife
Body Armor

Automatic Rifleman

Light machinegun (RPK-74, M249 SAW, Type 95)
4 Drums of ammunition
2 Fragmentation Grenades
6 Extra Magazines for team's assault rifles
Knife
Body Armor

Medic

Assault Rifle
4 Magazines
2 Fragmentation Grenades
1 Smoke Grenade
6 Tourniquettes (to stop bleeding)
Body Armor

HMG Gunner Specialty Kit

HMG (M240, PKM, FN MAG)
800 rounds of ammunition
Body Armor
Knife

Sniper Specialty Kit

Sniper Rifle (SVD, L96, M82, M40A3, Type 8
Sidearm
Claymore
Knife
No Body Armor

Designated Marksman Specialty Kit

Semi-automatic sniper rifle (M14DMR, VSS, SPR)
Knife
Body Armor
2 Fragmentation

Helo Pilot Specialty Kit

SMG (MP5, UZI, Type 05)
No Body Armor
Knife

Aircraft Pilot Specialty Kit

Sidearm
No Body Armor
Knife

Anti-tank Kit Specialty Kit

Anti-armor weapon (Eryx, SMAW, RPG-7, AT-4)
Sidearm
Body Armor
Knife
_____________________________________________

Specialty Kits can only be found at weapons caches and armories. One or two of each specialty kit would be available at any given time, depending on the map size

[beta]

And giving bandages to individuals decreases teamwork because medics wouldn't have that much of a use anymore and people would just pick a class like support which they would have more of an advantage with.

Read: The individual bandage heals to 50%, the medic to 75%.

Medic bandages ARE needed, individual bandages ONLY stop your bleeding.

For 1, the rifleman you listed is just an assualt class with ammo packs which is not needed at all.

Yes, they are similar to the "Assault" class because I think the "Assault" class was trying to emulate the standard rifleman, and (in most armies at least) the WHOLE Platoon carries ammunition for their own weapons AND the Platoon weapons (HMG, mortar, AT system, etc.) AND the Squad weapons (LMGs mainly), so having the Rifleman carry ammunition for the squad doesn't seem to unrealistic, at least to me.

The marksman is also an assualt classman but only with an optical sight. All they would need to do is make a weapon, such as an M16/optic or M14 with optics for the assualt class and have them pick that. Be just about the same thing.

Yes, the Marksman is also (in this class system) basically a Rifleman with optics .... simply swapping out the weapons, which is what I proposed in the opening of the post, using the "unlocks" for different classes.

There is no use for a mortar class either. They were taken out because people spam with them(BFV) and it is basically like a smaller version of artillery. Too many people would just camp with them instead of fight and they are not really a viable option to PR since it is more infantry focused which are fast paced and don't have time to do that sort of thing.

I disagree.

Yes, maybe there will be some "spamming", but semi-intelligent map design will make this tactic a lot less viable, the reason for mortars being made was to give infantry a mobile fire support platform, a lone mortarman launching rounds randomly will hardly be a threat, and if they are co-ordinating with someone else to "spot" the rounds, that's what fire support is ...

As for the gameplay being too "fast paced", that is again a matter of map design, if the enemy is using all their players for combat roles, they will probably overrun your combat troops, BUT once they reach their objective (taking a flag for example) you will be able to use your combat support players to halt their advance with a barrage, or cut their advance down with HMG fire, etc.

Not everyone in combat carries binoculars and that defeats part of the purpose of the commander whose job it is to call out enemies out of range.

Simply put, the commander or a sniper are not ALWAYS next to you in combat, sometimes you will need, in the squad, the ability to view long range targets.

And your sniper class would carry a sidearm which they need and most do carry as a backup.

This would only promote more sniper-spamming and would flare up the whole "cut the sniper" controversy again, since the sniper rifle is a powerful weapon, the class must be limited in some way.

The engineer class diffenetly doesn't need a carbine. All they need is a PDW or shotgun for short range because we don't want engineers fighting and that would happen with carbines.

The key word here is COMBAT Engineer.

They are MEANT to be in the frontlines (realtively at least), not back at base fixing a tank. They are the ones who plant explosives, lay mines, and do the demolitions work needed for the team.

With that many classes we would have too many useless classes in squads now and not enough of balanced ones like we have now.

I do not see any "useless" classes in my list ... all of them serve a purpose, they might not all be "killing machines", but they each have their own specific role that is needed in the BF2 "combat zone", and I hardly think the classes we have now are "balanced". If they were, why would the sniper rifles need to be gimped, or why is half of the team usually medics or supports?

IMO, there is no need for this much choice except for the different wep and nade loadouts which could be done in teh alt spots used for the unlocks. This is also too many classes even for 64 players due to the fact that most will pick non combat classes like mortarman which doesn't help the team out that much like an assualtman or support gunner.

OK, there are 8 CLASSES, there are 2 SUB-CLASSES (which use the UNLOCKS), for example: RIFLEMAN CLASS has the Rifleman and the Grenadier.

I don't understand how a non-combat class can not help the team out, the Air Crew is a non-combat class, yet they (and only they) can pilot the most powerful entity on the battlefield ... hardly helpful

If the whole team consisted of "assualtmen" and "support gunners", what would happen if the enemy decided to use a tank, a chopper, or a jet? You would need AT or AA. But then the enemy would use Snipers to kill your AT or AA soldiers before they could disable your vehicles, now you can either use Snipers or spot the Sniper and get a Mortarman to put a few mortars on top of the sniper. What if one of these "assualtmen" was critically wounded and needing a medic? Leave him to die and respawn later? Seems to be a wasteful strategy that will let the other team win.

I think automatic riflemen should be able to give out, at maximum, 4-6 magazines of M16 or AK47 ammunition, depending on the team. Vehicles, such as HMMWVs, Landrovers, and Vodniks should be the primary option for rearming. They can carry a helluva lot more ammunitation than one person (support gunner).

I agree that vehicles should be able to re-arm mags, but I disagree that the Automatic Rifleman should carry the extra ammo, they ALREADY carry (for US at least) 600 rounds, add on another 120-180 rounds and they'll be a liiitle on the tired side.


The idea of the "armoury" sounds intriguing (I had a similar idea too) but can be slightly limiting and unrealistic.

For example, say the US are invading an airstrip in China, the US spawn at their armoured column that JUST moved into the area, they wouldn't have any buildings set up if they were expecting enemy attack, and all the units committed to the battle would ALREADY have the gear they would use.

The only reason I could see NEEDING an armoury is for class limiting (ie: by numbers) since this system (16 kits) only uses 2 of the unlocks, when there is the potential for 3 (maybe more, depending on how it is coded) which is 24 (or more) kits.

I was originally going to do the full 24 kits, but I had a hard time filling out all 24 of them with kits that were unique enough to justify being a seperate kit.

Maybe I should look into this 24 kit system again with all these new ideas ...


EDIT: Man, my posts are just getting WAY too long these days

[Cerberus]

The idea of the "armoury" sounds intriguing (I had a similar idea too) but can be slightly limiting and unrealistic.

Wanna know whats even more unrealistic? Two airfields within a mile of each other


And I didn't mean an actual armory. I just meant kits that would be placed at the main base for people to pick up. These would be specialty classes (not part of a rifle squad)

[Pence]

Man, my posts are just getting WAY too long these days

All for a good cause thogh eh? I like the origonal idea exsept the mortar crew and Recon class. If anythink your ideas are very realistic and would incurage teamwork, everyone has added some interesting things too.
I just want to see wether the devs will incorporate anythink and i want to see what they think.

[Peter-SAS]

Considering Smoke Grenades don't last long enough, the Assualt guy should get a few more IMO

[beta]

I just don't think the average rifleman will get a flashbang, or hell maybe not even that many frag grenades. As for smokes I think those should mainly be for squad leaders if that would be possible.

I'm not so sure on the flashbangs, but I'm pretty sure that almost everyone gets at least one smoke grenade for use of putting up a screen.

Now (from what I've been told/read) in the CF, smoke screens usually consist of AT LEAST 3-4 smoke grenades, so one man can't put one up on his own, so it's reasonable to assume each person gets 2 smokes so they can put up 2 screens before needing resupply.

The flashbangs might be issued if the force was going into a heavy urban area, such as Karkand, but again I'm not too sure on how they are issued.


Reading through a few of the other threads I've lots of suggestions for taking out ammo bags entirely, only using supply crates/vehicles to resupply. This (to me) would be ideal, since the soldiers represented in PRMM are most likely soldiers without rucks/packs that only have kit for less than 24 hours, since they are expected to get relived/resupplied within that time.

I was just unsure of if removing the ammo bags would make players less likely to work as a team, since you could just drive off in a jeep and keep yourself resupplied all day. But if the maps limit vehicles to one vehicle per EXPECTED squad PLUS ONE (ie: on a 16 player map, there can be one 6 player squad, and 2 players, so 1 vehicle for the squad, one extra) then this would force the players to use their vehicles intelligently or be stuck without ammo. Also, the issue comes up that enemy vehicles COULD if the way it is scripted now remains) resupply your squad, which isn't very realistic.

If this was implemented into this system, some changes would have to be made obviously. The LMG Spotter class would have to be changed to something else, the ammunition loadout might have to be changed slightly as well, but it could still work.

What do you guys think, should the ammo bags be removed and ammuniton/supplies only be available at crates/vehicles?

EDIT: typo

[Pence]

Would resuplying when you get back into your APC work? But eventualy the APC runs out of supplys and then you need a supply vehicle to stock it back up?

Comments?

[beta]

Would resuplying when you get back into your APC work? But eventualy the APC runs out of supplys and then you need a supply vehicle to stock it back up?

Thats what I was thinking, you have the squad vehicle with ammo for the squad.

I don't know if its possible to have a vehicle that dispenses ammo run out of ammo to dispense, but if it is, that would be the perfect solution.

Only the designated supply vehicles could re-arm the vehicles (the supply crates would not work, so as to create more logistics) and the vehicles could only give out a full resupply to the squad, say, 3 times.


On a 16 player map, you would have the one squad and the two extra people ("leftovers"). So, you would have one squad vehicle (ie: APC), one extra vehicle (ie: HMWV) and one supply vehicle.

On a 32 player map, you can expect to have 2 6 player squads and 4 "leftover" players, so there would be 2 squad vehicles, one extra vehicle, and one supply vehicle.

On a 64 player map, you could have 5 squads and 2 "leftovers", so 5 squad vehicles, one extra vehicle, and two supply vehicles (since the extra amount of players).

What do you think?

[Peter-SAS]

I think such a method would be a hell of a lot better than the current situation

It would be another incentive to use vehicles properly.

[beta]

All right then, I'll start working on modifiying this system to incorporate vehicle only re-arms.

ADDITION:

Alright, I edited a few things in the original post:

-changed each soldier's loadout to have only one individual bandage to make medics more necessary

-removed flashbang from Rifleman, only the Grenadier has flashbangs now

-removed ammo bags, the LMG Spotter still carries ammunition for the LMG Gunner however

-added in RESUPPLY SYSTEM