Class Suggestion (LENGTHY!)

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-12 18:54

beta, this idea is...

INGENIOUS!

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-12 19:02

beta, this idea is...

INGENIOUS!

Why thank you ...

And to think, half of this new stuff wouldn't have been added if the thread stayed dead ...

Post by **eggman** » 2006-03-12 19:05

More good discussion

Keep in mind that, afaik, it's not possible to have vehicles / supply crates only supply certain other vehicles. It's basically binary .. they either supply and/or heal vehicles or not. It is possible to adjust whether they heal/repair OR resupply OR both.

Generally you won't see supply crates that know about Turbo Diesel engines in PR

It *is* (I think) possible to create a supply station that could resupply all vehicle types. The Air Repair Station is .. I believe .. currently limited to just aircraft, tho it could be possible (might even be this way now) to make the rearm and/or repair capabilities of the Air Repair Station apply to all vehicle types (and in turn apply those properties to other building types; so a garage for example).

Those resupply / heal properties can also apply to players, so you could create a field hospital type of object.

Some of this gets into level and map design issues, which we have to be careful about... can't require PR to *need* all custom maps for the gameworld to work. eg: a garage that repairs and a guy just sits in there getting repaired while in a fight; such a facility would have to be located away from the fight and this gets into level design. It's a good idea but we don't want to completely restrict ourselves to only maps we can produce.

Here are some thoughts on this topic that are within the realm of
0.3 (um... at least I think they might be heh)

- Hummer class jeeps (Hummer, Vodnik, Nanjing) can resupply troops only (no healing)
- Assault Class gets the ammo bag, but it can't be thrown (much like the 0.25 Medic kits)
- Resupply radius on ammo kit (and medic kits) is greatly reduced so it's basically a 1 on 1 operation (or a tight circle)
---> note: looking into other alternatives around making things like resupply and healing work like the wrench, but those might take longer than 0.3

And slightly related to the topic of rearming and resupply:

- Aircraft require landing to rearm / repair at Airstrips, Helipads and Carriers
---> before anyone freaks out about difficulties of landing / taxiing... it's really not that hard and the "flyby, new plane, neener neener" is silly and has to go

- Engineers will always repair faster than any static repair facility

And also somewhat related:
- The scoring system we are developing will penalise players quite significantly for losing vehicles (and reward players for killing them)
---> note this is still in development and all of it may not make 0.3

Thoughts?

Generally .. in my view .. we need to slow the pace of the game down to be more "deliberate". There's a grain of salt with that because the nature of the BF2 engine is very fast paced. If we really wanted a belly crawler we'd be playing America's Army, so we'll keep a balance of game play and realism.

Note that most of this is just my opinion and should not be regarded as any kind of "official statement" lol. For all you know I'm sh*tfaced right now

egg

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-12 19:34

Keep in mind that, afaik, it's not possible to have vehicles / supply crates only supply certain other vehicles. It's basically binary .. they either supply and/or heal vehicles or not. It is possible to adjust whether they heal/repair OR resupply OR both.

Alright, so that means a specific resupplied ammo bag is out. Not too big of a deal

.

It *is* (I think) possible to create a supply station that could resupply all vehicle types. The Air Repair Station is .. I believe .. currently limited to just aircraft, tho it could be possible (might even be this way now) to make the rearm and/or repair capabilities of the Air Repair Station apply to all vehicle types (and in turn apply those properties to other building types; so a garage for example).

That's good to know, perhaps creating a new class like a Squad Vehicle class that can only be rearmed by the Squad Vehicle Rearmer (ie: a Supply Vehicle). And if it is possible, the Supply Vehicle could ALSO rearm "regular" stuff (ie: infantry, tanks, etc.).

Some of this gets into level and map design issues, which we have to be careful about... can't require PR to *need* all custom maps for the gameworld to work. eg: a garage that repairs and a guy just sits in there getting repaired while in a fight; such a facility would have to be located away from the fight and this gets into level design. It's a good idea but we don't want to completely restrict ourselves to only maps we can produce.

That is true, certain things in this suggestion would limit the levels.

The way I saw it is that the "garage" would be like a large warehouse, back at the main base, you would have to drive into a "stall" to get repaired so you would only be able to fire out of the stall, into the building you are in, so as long as no flags were place in or near the garage it would be useless to "camp the repair pad".

Also, for maps where there would be an assaulting armoured column or such, having the assaulting team NOT have the ability to repair their vehicles is realistic as there isn't anything on the frontline to repair a tank with a hole in it

.

I understand that you want to try and keep as many mapping opportunities open to yourselves as possible.

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-03-12 20:27

Hummer class jeeps (Hummer, Vodnik, Nanjing) can resupply troops only (no healing)

Oh, dont. The jeeps will just become infeasted and over used.
IFV's that can supply the troops would work better because they will stick around there assinged vehical and if any die there squad leader is manning the weapon inside the APC (covering the squad) so they can just spawn on his location.

Did i hear a C-130 was being added? If so mabey we can make that into a supply vehical: Mid-Air refuleing (Jets re-arm and repair in flight if they fly near a C-130). Field resuply (The C-130 can land to rearm and heal team members).

More thought needs to be put into aircraft resupply but APC's supplying there squad will work good.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-12 20:54

I'd rather have the C-130 used as a gunship than a supply plane.

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-12 21:06

IFV's that can supply the troops would work better because they will stick around there assinged vehical and if any die there squad leader is manning the weapon inside the APC (covering the squad) so they can just spawn on his location.

Agreed, and if we can somehow get 8 man squads, a somewhat full Mech. Inf. Squad could be possible; Driver, Gunner, 6 Infantry ... would really add to the teamwork.

Oh, dont. The jeeps will just become infeasted and over used.

I'd have to agree with this ... as it is right now, destroying those FAVs (or even killing the people in them) is ridiculously annoying because they just seem to be invincible in them to anything short of a HEAT/APFDS or AT round.

If so mabey we can make that into a supply vehical: Mid-Air refuleing (Jets re-arm and repair in flight if they fly near a C-130).

The mid-air rearming would be a neat idea for a "air war" map.

I can imagine it now ... it'd be like Gundam!

Seriously though, mid-air rearming would be a great addition because it is VERY powerful, but also VERY dangerous, needing lots of practice.

Field resuply (The C-130 can land to rearm and heal team members).

On the size of maps that BF2 allows, I doubt anywhere but an airfield could safely land a C-130, so it would be better to drop the supplies (via commander).

Brings forth a nifty idea: the commander REQUESTS a supply drop FROM the C-130!

The C-130 has Supply Crate in the "bomb" slot, and must drop them onto the requested area, the more stuff done by players the better!

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't want to use the C-130 as a supply plane, any other transport could be added, it just seems to be a real cool idea!

Post by **eggman** » 2006-03-12 21:12

Pence wrote: Oh, dont. The jeeps will just become infeasted and over used.

Something that is easy to edit is the availability of vehicles in a map. People won't really be able to over use the jeeps

Also you guys didn't read that I said HUMMER class jeeps, NOT FAVs. Likely FAVs will start to go away a bit, only used where map / mission calls for such a vehicle (they really aren't very realistic).

Pence wrote: IFV's that can supply the troops would work better because they will stick around there assinged vehical and if any die there squad leader is manning the weapon inside the APC (covering the squad) so they can just spawn on his location.

But these all too often get used as tanks. It's definitely something to consider as APCs really are much more of a battlefield tool than Jeeps. Also many maps will not have APCs only jeeps. If anything adding the capability to both would be the best compromise.

Also keep in mind that we're going to continue to try and make vehicles a valuable asset, moving away .. wherever possible .. from the coin op style of vehicle play that kinda dominates VBF2 and even PR.

As far as in air refuelling, it's a neat idea, but I am not sure it would get used much... why bother when there is no fuel model and when you can likely just land back at an airfield and resupply?

egg

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-12 21:49

If anything adding the capability to both would be the best compromise.

That would be a good compromise, and yes I forgot that they were the ACTUAL jeeps, not the FAVs

.

But these all too often get used as tanks. It's definitely something to consider as APCs really are much more of a battlefield tool than Jeeps.

There are a few ways to try and reduce APCs being used like tanks, make the armour vs. tank rounds VERY weak, so one hit pretty much anywhere on the APC will disable it. But in the end, it is all about the player's mentality of what they use the APC for, and trying to change the mentality from VBF2 that APCs are mini-tanks will be hard.

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-03-12 22:11

beta wrote: There are a few ways to try and reduce APCs being used like tanks, make the armour vs. tank rounds VERY weak, so one hit pretty much anywhere on the APC will disable it. But in the end, it is all about the player's mentality of what they use the APC for, and trying to change the mentality from VBF2 that APCs are mini-tanks will be hard.

Make the APC's cannon unable to damage tanks like in real life and if they are going to mount anti-tank weapons on them then that is the only way of destroying tanks, also make anti-tank weapons on APC single shot until it is re-supplyed.

The British army is fully mecininsed and fights along side there armoured vehicals if my Warior could hold some extra magasines so when i get back in it after assaulting a position i could re-arm myself i would definetly keep some there.

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-12 22:26

Edited the first post again, simplified the RESUPPLY SYSTEM.

Make the APC's cannon unable to damage tanks like in real life and if they are going to mount anti-tank weapons on them then that is the only way of destroying tanks, also make anti-tank weapons on APC single shot until it is re-supplyed.

Yeah, the cannon on the APC really shouldn't damage a MBT too much (20-30 shots should do something to it), at least the newer ones because in Gulf Storm I some M2A2s destroyed T72s with the 25mm cannon by hitting them between the turret and the hull.

I think some APCs can re-arm the AT weapon on the fly, the moving compartment on the M2A2 Bradley for instance.

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2006-03-13 00:33

solodude23

Hes going by realism. I would rather go by realism than changing it for no apparent reason when not needed.

In real life, theres not one specific guy running around with all the ammo (EX: Support troop). The ammo you use is spread out and carried throughout your squad/platoon/etc.

Solo- Whatevers realistic I say. Like I said earlier, hes going by realism, not changing classes around for the hell of it. There is no, "Assault" Soldier in real life, all of which have M16's and M203's attatched with some smoke grenades. There are Riflemen. They have rifles. Some soldiers have grenade launchers, some carry LMG's (Auto-Riflemen, not 'Support') However I disagree with the Flashbangs. I highly doubt thats realistic for any normal class for the most part.

I am going for realism also, but in a more balanced way. I know there is no assualt soldier or marine in real life, but there is really no need to make two classes that are essentially just one minus a few grenades or optics. Like I said before, all you need to do is have alt classes for the ingame "assualt class." And there are no riflemen that carry LMGs, they are called Machinegunners. I just call them support or heavy gunners for short, but I know who they really are. IRL, there are also assaultman, but they have a little different purpose.

Solo- I do not know anything in this area, but does every soldier carry their own basic equipment around, and knows the basics to something like bandaging? I have no idea. Like I said, whatevers realistic realistic.

Yea, and it also willl mean that you will have more lone wolves since they don't need to depend on a medic in a squad. You can't have everything realistic because it will be at the stake of gameplay balances and fun.

Solo- Ok, your basing everything off this made up BF2 Assault classman. That is true, the Marksman IS basically a Rifleman with an advanced optic. Thats the advantage. Thats why its not called Rifleman/Assault.

And like I said before, there is no need to make a whole new class when all you have to do is have an alt in the assault class taht has optics and take away something like smokes or grenades.

Solo- See, thats what people think too much. Sure, in Battleifled 2 they are the 'All Seeing Eye" They can spot people all over the damn map with their magical tools, which instantly sends to every soldier in the battlefield. Realistic? No. Not only unrealistic, but also not fun. You know what I see as fun? YOu are traveling around with your squad, no enemies in sight. Your squad leader tells everyone to hold. He moves to a good observation point, pulls out his binoculars, and finds enemy, reporting them to the squad. From that intel they have gathered without the use of magic, they then begin their plans on how they will attack.

This is actually a pretty good idea.

Solo- Factually, its a million times more realistic than the BF2 Classes/Unlocks. Thats what matters, IMO. However something should be done for certain classes, or done overall so not everyone can pick any class that might stand out.[/QUOTE]

It maybe mroe realistic, but it is not necessary when you already have classes that have the core parts of all these classes in real life minus someone like a pilot class. With BF2 as it is with the vehicles still dominating, people still not working together, and lack of picking classes that actually benifit the battlefield, all these classes would just make the game less teamwork oriented, chaotic, and it would be a disaster. We already don't have enough Anti Tank people in the game, so why make other classes for them to pick which would seem more appealing?

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-03-13 00:34

PRMM is not vehicle based at all - with the long vehicle spawn times they don't influence battles much at all

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2006-03-13 01:06

Cerberus wrote:Here's my suggestion for classes
___________________________________________
Rifleman

Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
6 Magazines of Ammunition
3 Fragmentation Grenades
2 Smoke Grenades
Knife
Body Armor
(no use for breaching charge)

Grenadier

Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
GL Attachment (GP30, M203)
4 Magazines of Ammunition
4 HE Grenades (launched from GL)
2 Smoke Grenades (launched from GL)
Knife
Body Armor

Machinegunner

Light machinegun (RPK-74, M249 SAW, Type 95)
4 Drums of ammunition
2 Fragmentation Grenades
6 Extra Magazines for team's assault rifles
Knife
Body Armor

Medic

Assault Rifle
4 Magazines
2 Fragmentation Grenades
1 Smoke Grenade
6 Tourniquettes (to stop bleeding)
Body Armor

HMG Gunner Specialty Kit

HMG (M240, PKM, FN MAG)
800 rounds of ammunition
Body Armor
Knife

Sniper Specialty Kit

Sniper Rifle (SVD, L96, M82, M40A3, Type 8
Sidearm
Claymore
Knife
No Body Armor

Helo Pilot Specialty Kit

SMG (MP5, UZI, Type 05)
No Body Armor
Knife

Aircraft Pilot Specialty Kit

Sidearm
No Body Armor
Knife

Anti-tank Kit Specialty Kit

Anti-armor weapon (Eryx, SMAW, RPG-7, AT-4)
Sidearm
Body Armor
Knife
_____________________________________________

Specialty Kits can only be found at weapons caches and armories. One or two of each specialty kit would be available at any given time, depending on the map size

These are the ideas that should be implimented because they are much simplier, and won't majorly effect the balance of the game or teamwork.
But I would change just a few things IMO.

Recon/Spec Ops
(M4, Ak shorty QBZ-95)
sidearm(Silenced)
2 grenades
no armor
Charges(C4)
Binoculars
knife

Assault(everything under assualt)

Rifleman
Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
6 Magazines of Ammunition
4 Fragmentation Grenades
2 Smoke Grenades
1 Breaching Charge
Knife
Body Armor

Grenadier-Alt class
Assault Rifle (M16, M4, L85, AK47, Type 86)
GL Attachment (GP30, M203)
5 Magazines of Ammunition
2 HE Grenades (launched from GL)
2 Smoke Grenades (launched from GL)
Knife
Body Armor

Designated marksman-Alt class 2
Assault rifle/Battle rifle(M14, G3(MEC),Type 6

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as48-e.htm
4 magazines
2 grenades
armor
knife

Support

Machinegunnner-No such thing as automatic riflemen
Light machinegun (RPK-74, M249 SAW, Type 95)
4 Drums of ammunition
2 Fragmentation Grenades
6 Extra Magazines for team's assault rifles
Knife
Body Armor

HMG Gunner-Alt class
HMG (M240, PKM, FN MAG)
800 rounds of ammunition
Body Armor
Knife
6 resuppy packs

B]Medic[/B]

Assault Rifle
4 Magazines
2 Fragmentation Grenades
1 Smoke Grenade
Body Armor
How he heals should stay the same

B]Sniper[/B] Specialty Kit

Sniper Rifle (SVD, L96, M82, M40A3, Type 8

Sidearm
Claymore
Knife
No Body Armor

Pilot Classes(would have to be next to the vehicles)

Helo Pilot
SMG (MP5, UZI, Type 05)
No Body Armor
Knife

Aircraft Pilot-alt
Sidearm(1911)
No Body Armor
Knife

Engineer Class

Engineer
shotgun
buckshot
slug
mines
no armor
wrench
knife

Engineer-alt
shotgun
buckshot
slug
charges(C4)
wrench
no armor
knife

Anti-armor

Anti-tank Kit Specialty Kit
Anti-armor weapon (Eryx, SMAW, RPG-7, AT-4)
Sidearm
Body Armor
Knife

Anti-tank Kit-alt class
Smaller antiarmor/vehicle weapon(1 LAW RPG etc.)
Assault rifle
2 magazines
knife

These classes will basically give you more diversity and everything the squads need without over complicating the game or making it harder for squad leaders to keep the classes that actually help the squad instead of getting a bunch of pilots in a squad etc.

There are no auto-riflemen. In the USMC, you are in MOS 311, which is rifleman and if you are in MOS 331 you are machinegunner. That is real life.

You could just put the name above the alt class instead of making a whole new slot for it.

And you make think PRMM is not vehicle based, but they still do dominate the game. Try playing on a 32 player size map like Kubra Dam or Dragon Valley and you will run into vehicles everywhere. On GloryHoundz 32 player Dragon(unless they changed it), vehicles dominated from beginning to end by just camping out of range of AT rockets. There are also not many AT out there now, so the game will remain vehicle dominated until they get more incentive to play AT which is why I put an alt class on the list above. You would have more people that play and up the chances of taking out convoys of armor even though you would only have 1 rocket which is for cars or tanks.

More classes equals less teamwork trust me. We have a problem now with the amount of people going support, sniper, or whatnot. You add in more classes like the ones originally suggested, you will have more people picking classes that are not suppose to be doing heavy fighting such as engineer, mortman, etc. I already have a problem now getting a good diversity of classes in my squad that can actually benifit them and adding more won't do jack. It won't add more teamwork. And I never said medics or AT were useless either.

And if you think that having mortars won't effect the game that much, then you have never played BFV. Trap the enemy in one flag area or have them in a certain spot and everyone will go mortarman in order to get some points and kills. Level diversity doesn't matter when it comes to mortars because people will still do it. And it would be better to have the pilot classes next to the aircraft since everyone will spawn as a pilot and then all the ones that don't make it to the jet won't be useful and will have to sit around. Will increase carrer spawning and camping. If you do not think it could happen then you don't know games.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-13 01:09

Automatic riflemen exist.

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2006-03-13 01:32

My fault, automatic rifleman is just another name for Machinegunner, but I went by the USMC name of machinegunner which is its MOS. It is just more refered to as machinegunner.

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-03-13 02:01

but in a more balanced way

What exactly is it about my system that you find unbalanced?

Yea, and it also willl mean that you will have more lone wolves since they don't need to depend on a medic in a squad. You can't have everything realistic because it will be at the stake of gameplay balances and fun.

I don't know ... they would only get ONE bandage that would only stop their bleeding, to get healed they would have to see a medic or medical vehicle.

I've read your posts and the impression they gave me is that you think there is too many classes and it is too complicated.

With BF2 as it is with the vehicles still dominating, people still not working together, and lack of picking classes that actually benifit the battlefield, all these classes would just make the game less teamwork oriented, chaotic, and it would be a disaster.

This seems a little contradictory, you're saying that the BF2 classes, as they are, make people not work together and pick "useless" classes, yet you say why change the classes since they are fine as they are

instead of getting a bunch of pilots in a squad etc.

If the players INSIST on spawning into your squad which does INFANTRY work, simply kick them saying that this is an INFANTRY squad not an AIR SUPPORT squad.

In the USMC

There are other armed forces besides the USMC you know ...

There are also not many AT out there now, so the game will remain vehicle dominated until they get more incentive to play AT

Either use other vehicles to counter the enemy vehicles or make an AT Hunter/Killer squad ...

We have a problem now with the amount of people going support, sniper, or whatnot. You add in more classes like the ones originally suggested, you will have more people picking classes that are not suppose to be doing heavy fighting such as engineer, mortman, etc.

Yes, Combat Engineer and Mortars AREN'T supposed to do heavy fighting, they are COMBAT SUPPORT and FIRE SUPPORT respectively, if "heavy fighting" is needed, pick a class with more ammunition and a more powerful weapon.

I already have a problem now getting a good diversity of classes in my squad that can actually benifit them and adding more won't do jack.

In this suggestion there is only really TWO new classes added, the PILOT class and the RECON class. The others have just been remade and rebalanced to fit a more realistic portrayal of a combat unit.

And if you think that having mortars won't effect the game that much, then you have never played BFV.

Sure have.

Trap the enemy in one flag area or have them in a certain spot and everyone will go mortarman in order to get some points and kills.

Solution: NO uncappable flags.

Level diversity doesn't matter when it comes to mortars because people will still do it.

Yes, people will still try it, BUT making a level that doesn't have bases where it is impossible to effectively defend from OR easily get out of WILL make this happen less.

And it would be better to have the pilot classes next to the aircraft since everyone will spawn as a pilot and then all the ones that don't make it to the jet won't be useful and will have to sit around. Will increase carrer spawning and camping.

Camping the planes/helos WILL happen unless a RADICALLY different system is made, simply putting the kits next to the plane will not help, as people will just TK for the kit instead of the plane.

Seriously, would all the pilots who didn't get to their jet just decide to go and swim/boat to the mainland? I doubt it, many would simply wait till the plane spawns again and try to get in again. If the pilot kit was placed next to the plane, they would do the EXACT same thing.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-03-13 02:43

Don't base any judgements on vehicles in PR as a result of vanilla BF2 maps... they haven't been audited (yet).

You WILL find that a team with a couple of engineers that take care of their vehicles will dominate over a team of guys who drive a tank into destruction without causing any damage.

Also AAS maps will likely get an audit to remove any uncappable flags, this was a mistake on my part I prolly shoulda listened to all the peeps who told me this before

There are other game modes where uncappable flags are a good idea, but no AAS.

This is good healthy discussion and is, imo, invaluable for the dev team. I'll *try* and stay tuned into it and .. at some point .. will chime in on where we're getting outside the realm of feasible possibility with the BF2 engine (then y'all can hopefully prove me wrong hehe, I'm definitely still learning about what's possible).

egg

AznLB · Post by **AznLB** » 2006-03-13 03:40

This class system rules, kudos beta, kudos!