Gameplay Behaviour Study

[Silvarius2000]

Hi everyone. I'd like to share my opinion on the 'feel' of Project Reality on how its currently playing compared to what we know of 'what really happens' in real life (with our limited knowledge so this is really a discussion not a rant)

Armour (including APC)
Tanks in this version are done appropriately imho in terms of balance against infantry since tanks that are handled well tend to stay in a static position supporting an ongoing assault or is entrenched with infantry. Tanks that dont follow this norm and charges straight into flags usually get destroyed in due time which encourages the 'static position' behaviour.

Infantry
Infantry behaviour currently is still too fluid in my opinion. What do I mean by fluid? I mean movement is still not easily restricted (suppresive fire isnt perfect) and pinning down is only effective in terms of reducing the efficiency of return fire.

Infantry Support such as H-AT and Automatic Rifleman are still not acting as their real life counterparts where the H-AT relies on shooting and scooting to survive since it is easy to trace the exhaust fumes back to the launcher and moving the launcher is slow giving enough time to counter the treat.

Light MG units are severely hampered by my early point of suppresive fire not being as effective in pinning squads down in terms of movement as the squad under fire could just sprint to cover rather than pinned.

Air Units
Aviation units have too much 'endurance' in terms of a game round. With loitering time not portrayed in game and the inability of small arms fire to provide a risk factor to any air unit, helicopters and fast movers are decidedly overpowered against infantry units.


GAME TYPE

Moving on to the other discussion about the GameTypes. Do they really influence players to behave appropriately as a combatant in the battlefield? I notice that on Sunset City the only flag to be captured is only the city with a very large capture radius.

This situation has led me to see plenty of innovation in terms of capturing the flag with players actually being combined in effort (everyones going for the same flag) and not being in immediate contact since the enemy can be capping anywhere.

I notice that not many people realize that defending a static position with a squad is inevitably an invitation to being wiped out after the first contact since cleaning out an identified position requires only some planning. But with Sunset City's one flag large cap radius this actually forces squads to perform combat patrols around the flag perimeter (which is quite large) which is far more effective than digging in and waiting.

Suggestion

1)Some movement penalty or reloading time penalty for H-AT users to simulate the cumbersome equipment for deploying (even more of a penalty that is)

2)An additional effect with suppresion where the bullet calibre is in proportion with the suppresion effect. firing a 3 sec burst from the LMG should have more of an effect than a 5.56 plinking nearby.

3)I'd like to see more One Flag Large Cap Radius type maps as I can see the most realistic behavious among players akin to real life.

Thanks for reading (Devs and Players)
Please do discuss

[Skodz]

I totally agree to all of your suggestions and statements. Although, I came up with an idea reading your statement about supressive fire. Maybe slowing infantry movement speed while supressed by Light Machine Gun, .50, etc. could be a solution ?

[[=TC=]nuetron]

I have a suggestion, how about you go f@#$ yourself!!!!

Naw, im just kidding, good points!!

Especially the point about suppression fire, the other day I had suppression fire happen to me 5 times from about 20 feet away each time.
4 of the times I was able to kill my opponent because he fired randomly at me and I was able to shoot him because he was in the middle of my screen and I just fired back randomly...I won even with a semi vs him auto!

BUT........ I don't totally agree with the air units part..As a pilot I feel that I have enough to worry about with the usual suspects:
-Anti-Aircraft Vehicles
-Anti-Aircraft Artillery(ZPU, Gattlingesque USMC gun)
-Anti-Aircraft stationary missiles
-Anti-Aircraft missiles(SA7,FIM-92)
and the worst enemy of all pilots.........
-LAGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last thing that I need to worry about while dogfighting, let alone CAS, is a squad with a Vodnik taking me down because they decided to make a rifle more effective! I already hate how powerful it is against the Hueys when I'm flying...I'd seriously consider how much I like this mod when my mighty jet is taken down by 2 squads after I make 3 passes!

[Silvarius2000]

BUT........ I don't totally agree with the air units part..As a pilot I feel that I have enough to worry about with the usual suspects:
-Anti-Aircraft Vehicles
-Anti-Aircraft Artillery(ZPU, Gattlingesque USMC gun)
-Anti-Aircraft stationary missiles
-Anti-Aircraft missiles(SA7,FIM-92)
and the worst enemy of all pilots.........
-LAGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last thing that I need to worry about while dogfighting, let alone CAS, is a squad with a Vodnik taking me down because they decided to make a rifle more effective! I already hate how powerful it is against the Hueys when I'm flying...I'd seriously consider how much I like this mod when my mighty jet is taken down by 2 squads after I make 3 passes![/QUOTE]


Hey guys thanks for the replies. During the vietnam war, small arms fire was responsible for taking down more fast flyers than SAM sites. That oughta mean something. And if you're flying low enough for a Vodnik mounted squad to take you down I'd say you're flying too slow/low.

I always believed that Aircraft are supposed to be a fragile asset to the battlefield since it only takes minor damage to the airframe before its forced to RTB or Catastrophic failure.

[Conman51]

i agree w/ most of your post...except...the bullet/supression...a bullet coming at you will scare you into finding cover no matter how big it is

plus it wont be fair for the americans becaues their mg fires 5.56

[Sirsolo]

Completly disagree with the Air units thinger. Ever been in a littlebird? Those are made out of exploding foil when faced with light arms fire.

Worst enemy of piltos isnt lag... it's those little annoying birds that fly into your engine, thus cause it to stall and fall into the ground.

[markonymous]

Hey guys thanks for the replies. During the vietnam war, small arms fire was responsible for taking down more fast flyers than SAM sites. That oughta mean something. And if you're flying low enough for a Vodnik mounted squad to take you down I'd say you're flying too slow/low.

I always believed that Aircraft are supposed to be a fragile asset to the battlefield since it only takes minor damage to the airframe before its forced to RTB or Catastrophic failure.

If we give aircraft all disadvantages we should give them all the advantages if you want to be completely fair and realistic. The apache can take out all the armor on kashan desert in less then 30 sec from the mainbase. People need to stop bitching about the aircraft they are the most restricted vehicles in PR right now. Do you understand now that air vehicles are already extremely restricted compared to their real-life counterparts?

[Silvarius2000]

If we give aircraft all disadvantages we should give them all the advantages if you want to be completely fair and realistic. The apache can take out all the armor on kashan desert in less then 30 sec from the mainbase. People need to stop bitching about the aircraft they are the most restricted vehicles in PR right now. Do you understand now that air vehicles are already extremely restricted compared to their real-life counterparts?

If properly flown they ARE able to take out all armour on Kashan desert in 30 sec if they are lined up in a nice line. Dont you think its incredulous to see a blackhawk hovering perfectly still over an enemy squad to drop someone while they spray at the Blackhawk silly without any consequences for the pilot?

Do you understand that properly flown aircraft in this version is VERY lethal?

[markonymous]

Where do you think the saying: "don't run you'll just die tired" comes from? its when the attack helicopters are comming. The attack helicopter is the most lethal thing on the battlefield today. That should be reflected in PR too. So by all means go ahead and make it easier to shoot down but give it more of its power back. And i know fully well how lethal an attack heli can be in PR since i spend much of my time on PR flying them. I also see how easily they are killed. One guy with an AA kit in the wrong place and you're dead.

If properly flown they ARE able to take out all armour on Kashan desert in 30 sec if they are lined up in a nice line

fail... not enough ammo. Have you flown attack helis on PR or are you just one of those guys that is all uppset when his tank goes boom from nowhere.

[Silvarius2000]

Where do you think the saying: "don't run you'll just die tired" comes from? its when the attack helicopters are comming. The attack helicopter is the most lethal thing on the battlefield today. That should be reflected in PR too. So by all means go ahead and make it easier to shoot down but give it more of its power back. And i know fully well how lethal an attack heli can be in PR since i spend much of my time on PR flying them. I also see how easily they are killed. One guy with an AA kit in the wrong place and you're dead.



fail... not enough ammo. Have you flown attack helis on PR or are you just one of those guys that is all uppset when his tank goes boom from nowhere.

Doesnt tank go boom from nowhere constitute " LETHAL " ?

And yes I understand that its a far cry from its real life abilities being able to lock on to 8 tanks and firing hellfire's in volleys. Yes I understand that. But dont you think its lethality is quite respected in game already? I think its vulnerabilities are still glossed over slightly.

Ask anyone in an infantry squadron when engaging helicopters. Its frustrating that small arms fire has NO effect whatsoever. Even the AA kit is useless against a pilot who knows how to time his countermeasures right.

And reloading your attack helicopter isnt rocket science. Just go back and reload. Whats so difficult about that?

[Outlawz7]

Well, the thing is that if you pin down someone they will go find cover, what else would you do, stand there?

It is pissing off somehow that once you start firing on someone with a .50 for example, and they're 600m away and you're well out of range of the small arms,yet the will still start shooting back with the marksmen and SAWs.

The only effective way of actually pinning a squad is to slaughter half the squad and preferably the SL so they **** themselves.
However that does not mean that suppressive fire doesn't work in PR

I was on Kashan 16 as MEC yesterday and there was a US squad that went for South Bunker. I was sitting on a hill with the Vodnik and kept firing on them, killing them several times or suppressing them to the point, where another MEC squad could easily take them out as they were distracted.
They couldn't get far, they had no support so while the MEC was capturing North Village and already going for US Outpost, I had a squad of USMC pinned down rendering them useless.

[markonymous]

Doesnt tank go boom from nowhere constitute " LETHAL " ?

And yes I understand that its a far cry from its real life abilities being able to lock on to 8 tanks and firing hellfire's in volleys. Yes I understand that. But dont you think its lethality is quite respected in game already? I think its vulnerabilities are still glossed over slightly.

Ask anyone in an infantry squadron when engaging helicopters. Its frustrating that small arms fire has NO effect whatsoever. Even the AA kit is useless against a pilot who knows how to time his countermeasures right.

And reloading your attack helicopter isnt rocket science. Just go back and reload. Whats so difficult about that?

Thats just it infantry squads which are the lest lethal on the battlefield(counting single units) should not be able to take down the most lethal thing on the battlefield. When would the infantry have a chance to take down an apache? the wouldn't they'd be dead long before they ever saw it comming. This should be represented in the game.

getting killed without warning does not constitute lethality it constitutes skill.

[Silvarius2000]

Thats just it infantry squads which are the lest lethal on the battlefield(counting single units) should not be able to take down the most lethal thing on the battlefield. When would the infantry have a chance to take down an apache? the wouldn't they'd be dead long before they ever saw it comming. This should be represented in the game.

getting killed without warning does not constitute lethality it constitutes skill.

Thats the thing. Should not doesnt mean Cannot. There must be a chance for any small damage to give a helicopter problems. Small Arms Fire can damage helicopters seriously. Thats my point. With the HP system, it cannot simulate the effect of small arms fire damaging the many small/critical components of a complex airframe. Fuel leaks, rotor damage, mechanism damage, tail rotor damage you name it.

[markonymous]

Thats the thing. Should not doesnt mean Cannot. There must be a chance for any small damage to give a helicopter problems. Small Arms Fire can damage helicopters seriously. Thats my point. With the HP system, it cannot simulate the effect of small arms fire damaging the many small/critical components of a complex airframe. Fuel leaks, rotor damage, mechanism damage, tail rotor damage you name it.

the tailrotor thing is already in-gam but only works on LAN servers for some reason. And action should be constituted by rule not exception. Simply put if we can only have it one way it should be the way that best represents reality and that is the way it is now.

and since you have realized its impossible why are you debating me?

[Silvarius2000]

the tailrotor thing is already in-gam but only works on LAN servers for some reason. And action should be constituted by rule not exception. Simply put if we can only have it one way it should be the way that best represents reality and that is the way it is now.

and since you have realized its impossible why are you debating me?

Last I checked this was a discussion

[markonymous]

Debate (American English) or debating (British English) is a formal method of interactive and position representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, since it includes persuasion which appeals to the emotional responses of an audience, and rules enabling people to discuss and decide on differences, within a framework defining how they will interact.

i think thats what we are doing, isnt it?

Now there is absolutely no reason to make the helis more susceptible to ground fire then they already are for several above mentioned reasons.

[Silvarius2000]

i think thats what we are doing, isnt it?

Now there is absolutely no reason to make the helis more susceptible to ground fire then they already are for several above mentioned reasons.

I've already given my view that Heli's are still not vulnerable enough to small arms fire. If you wish to disagree please go ahead. I'd just like to forward my view to the forum.

My reason would be that Helicopters are invulnerable to small arms fire (Fifty cals on jeeps dont count). And I am suggesting that something should be done about that.

[Alex6714]

Do you understand that properly flown aircraft in this version is VERY lethal?

Of course they are, and that is how they should be. How many do you see being properly flown?


An Apache doesn´t get shot down with a 5.56 rifle. Even less so an A-10! I have seen a video about the Apache in Afghanistan, where one of the pilots explains that every single one there has taken small arms fire. Why then are they not all burning wrecks?

In game anything above a .50 cal can take out a chopper easily. Less so an attack heli because, well, a Hellfire >>> .50 cal.


AA is already deadly, it really isn´t hard to shoot a helicopter down in PR.

Hell, the littlebird is extremely fragile ingame. A few qbz shooting at it and its down if the pilot doesn't bug out fast, and that's if the pilot doesn´t get shot out!


The helicopters in PR lack a lot of realistic aspects such as stabilization, hellfires that can lock on etc...

Most of the time it comes down to the fact that no one has any idea how to shoot them down... How many AAvs have me and Mora taken out that drive across the desert looking at the ground, or park in the middle of the desert in full view? And those who think parking your vodnik in the middle of a road makes it invisible to a high flying helicopter... In one match, no one could shoot down the enemy attack heli, so I got an AA kit and went out into the woods. Shortly later, the helicopter was burning, hitting the ground. And they were very good pilots, as I know them. In fact, every time I had that AA kit I could take the chopper down. Shooting down an attack heli also needs skill.


I find the people who complain like this about the air assets, are the ones who never fly them. In that case, I think your opinion is void.