Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

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M.Warren
Posts: 633
Joined: 2007-12-24 13:37

Post by M.Warren »

What can I say? It's pretty much clear as to what I'm going to be explaining here. But before I get to that, allow me a moment to elaborate...

As time goes by and Project Reality progresses it seems as if teamwork has not disappeared, but instead deteriorated to a newfound low. This is becoming increasingly more noticeable on servers with minimal to no server administration present to keep people in check. Because of this lack in teamwork, it has forcefully made players think twice before Commanding a team obviously making it simply not worth the effort. It's not suprising why very few people Command anymore.

As being an avid Commander and Squad Leader, I have payed particular attention to the efforts and coordination of teams over a large period of time. Ranging from bearing witness to the worst possible senario unfold, to the greatest amount of teamwork where a Commander does not even need to speak a word. Simply because the team works with such an extreme amount of skill, fluid coordination and situational awareness. But even some of the best squads that had ever been made were brought to a screetching halt by one simple occurance...

What could this occurance be? At first it seems harmless enough as it happens all the time. But when nothing is done about it, it can bring a whole team down. This occurance is when a "lame duck" player becomes a squad leader by choice or by random selection after the loss of the previous leader.

Now when I mean "lame duck", I mean when a player ends up as a Squad Leader taking charge of three to five other people and do not participate in any way to advance the squad in a tactically logical role. Thusly, these players stagnate uselessly taking up the Squad Leader position without an Officer kit and cripple the efforts of an entire team.

These "lame duck" players are generally identified by:
  • Refusal of utilizing the Officer kit to establish a rally point for the squad and generally using requested kits as they please.
  • Refusal of teamwork and coordinating efforts with thier Commander or Squad Members.
  • Refusal of any means of communication with the rest of the squad, by not using their microphones and/or not typing in team/squad chat.
  • Refusal of any means of communication with the commander, by not using their microphones and/or not typing in team chat.
Typical "lame duck" Squad Leader, take note of the Marksman kit.
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Typical scattered, uncoordinated and teamwork lacking Squad Members. Notice how the squad does not own a Rally Point and the Squad Leader is in the middle of nowhere. Also there is no designated objective marker identified on the map to indicate any intentions of teamwork.
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<Note: I was about to take a screenshot of the scores between Squad 1 and Squad 2, but the round had ended abruptly as the last Cache was destroyed. Squad 1 Had something like 3,000+ teamwork points. They had destroyed up to about 5 caches and remained in the city almost all round. Whereas Squad 2 had only accumulated 300+ points by the end of the round and pretty much remained in disarray.>

It's quite obvious that many players have encountered these sorts of people. The problem is that a majority of players that end up as a member under these types of Squad Leaders refuse to do anything about it. Usually ending up becoming lazy themselves and not contributing to anything useful and randomly wander maps as loners on thier own terms. This is not the essence of Project Reality and is by far one of the most ironic if not completely illogical situations to persist. This sort of issue stands right next to the well known case of players being able to One-Man-Armor aswell, but that's a different subject.

But what can we do about this? Currently it remains an uncontrolled situation that negatively impacts Project Reality, taking the purpose of teamwork and coordination and throwing it right out the window. The remedy is quite clear, as it should have been this way a long time ago. Limit the available kits to Commanders and Squad Leaders.
  • Commander:
  • Only Available Default Kits - Officer, Engineer.
  • Only Available Requestable Kits - Officer.
  • Squad Leader: (Squad Leaders with two or less Squad Members.)
  • Only Available Default Kits - Rifleman (Scope), Rifleman (Ironsight), Medic, Engineer.
  • Only Available Requestable Kits - Sniper, Special Operations, Crewman, Pilot.
  • Squad Leader: (Squad Leader with three or more Squad Members.)
  • Only Available Default Kits - Officer, Engineer.
  • Only Available Requestable Kits - Officer, Crewman, Pilot.
If a player automatically becomes squad leader or finally accumulates three or more Squad Members he will be defaulted to selecting the Officer kit upon his death. Upon spawning he will have limited access to requestable kits based upon how many people are in his squad to encourage him to begin leading the squad. If this is not the players intent, he will theoretically be discouraged from remaining a Squad Leader and someone else will have to be designated the new Squad Leader.

Take note that the Engineer kit is the only default kit available to Commanders and Squad Leaders. This is done with good reason though, as to enable the CO or SL to Repair/Demolish a Command Post. This is mostly because the "Demolish Order" does not effect the Command Post. Not only that, but it will also permit Squad Leaders to utilize the Engineer kit while in armored squads if necessary.

The purpose of this is to crack down on "lame duck" players that have completely no intent on performing Squad Leader duties in both moderate and large infantry squads. This will not interfere with 2 man Sniper and/or Spec Ops squads. Also this method will still offer Squad Leaders with the ability to request kits that will allow them to interact with vehicles such as Jets, Helicopters, Tanks, APC's or AAV's. Squads that are structured differently and would have a conflict with these guidelines are most likely "hybrid" squads and thier combat effectiveness is at best... Questionable.

I would expect this to only help the Project Reality experience at this point. Unless people would much rather play with Squad Leaders capable of selecting whatever kits they want, running off with a Marksman kit and getting nothing done in the process.
Last edited by M.Warren on 2008-06-25 20:21, edited 13 times in total.
Maxfragg
Posts: 2122
Joined: 2007-01-02 22:10

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by Maxfragg »

i don't even think that the squadleader should be able to request a pilot kit, and on the crewman i am unsure.
but otherwise, i strongly support this.
(Flying distracts too much from his dutys, and well, crewman - in a tank squad i think he should be in the turnet of a tank, so a engineer kit would be better for him ;-)
The alternative would ofcause be, to make a secound officer kit, that allows also to drive tanks, but has also a wrench like the engi and no pistol and less or no grenades instead. that might be usefull for armor squads
M.Warren
Posts: 633
Joined: 2007-12-24 13:37

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by M.Warren »

Jonny wrote:I dont like it at all, there are too many new rules there.

What if a jeep pins your squad down while you are next to the rally? why stop the SL getting a LAT missile to save his squad?
Good question. Personally if your squad is getting pinned down next to your rally, there are 5 other guys to get a Light Anti-Tank.

Then again... Simply whipping out a Light Anti-Tank on impulse as an Officer to defeat a Jeep just because your nearby an RP doesn't seem that realistic either. :razz:

Course if fuzzhead was here he'd most likely be screaming "Suppressive fire!", which is perfectly capable of occuring aswell because having the suppression effect occur while your trying to gun a .50 caliber against 6 squad members doesn't tip well in your favor.

It simply comes down to players getting used to giving up the occasional little "pros" the way it is now, over the usual major "cons" that it has instead.
Take the Blue Pill or take the Red Pill?

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ostupidman
Posts: 208
Joined: 2008-05-13 15:03

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by ostupidman »

All the suggestion will do is make even fewer people want the SL position. You might be able to force people into getting the kit you want them to have, but you can't force them to play how you see fit.
nicoX
Posts: 1181
Joined: 2007-07-24 10:03

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by nicoX »

This is against all rules of RL scenarios. I agree I have many many times joined a squad with a blind SL, the best thing to do here is to radio your team that you are to create a new squad and teamplayers are welcome.
M.Warren
Posts: 633
Joined: 2007-12-24 13:37

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by M.Warren »

ostupidman wrote:All the suggestion will do is make even fewer people want the SL position. You might be able to force people into getting the kit you want them to have, but you can't force them to play how you see fit.
Jonny wrote:You are not going to be able to make people actually LEAD a squad if they are incapable of it. Its just not going to work. Ever.

But I still want my FREEDOM!
Look at it this way. If a child learns how to ride a bike with training wheels that's all they'll ever learn to use.

Now if thier parents take the training wheels away the child will obviously throw a fit. Eventually the child will accept it for the way it is, then proceed to get on the bike and learn how to ride it.

Then all of a sudden it wasn't so bad afterall, now was it?
Take the Blue Pill or take the Red Pill?

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ostupidman
Posts: 208
Joined: 2008-05-13 15:03

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by ostupidman »

Riding a bike is fun. Leading a squad can be anything but, I've led squads before and it was the best PR experience I've ever had....and it has been the worst too. There are always going to be people that don't want to lead other people, they just want to sit back and follow orders. There is also the fact that people will make squads because they are forced too, mostly because they get kicked by a server if they don't or just want to request weapons. Give them the option to do something they enjoy, or will atleast use, and not limit them to what someone else forces on them. I would rather have a blue squad with a SL using some random kit and actually doing something, than that same SL stuck with a dictated kit and doing diddly squat.
Colt556
Posts: 352
Joined: 2008-06-06 11:42

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by Colt556 »

I'm too lazy to read the thread, read most of the main post and I just gotta say this. Why not just add in a vote for squad members to remove a SL from his position? That'd be a lot easier then forcing the SL to go officer n whatnot. Not to mention the asshat SL's can still ruin it all by going engineer, or simply not using his officer kit right.
Masaq
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 10043
Joined: 2006-09-23 16:29

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by Masaq »

Colt556 wrote:I'm too lazy to read the thread, read most of the main post and I just gotta say this. Why not just add in a vote for squad members to remove a SL from his position? That'd be a lot easier then forcing the SL to go officer n whatnot. Not to mention the asshat SL's can still ruin it all by going engineer, or simply not using his officer kit right.

Admitting you're too damn lazy to read what other people are putting time and effort into is not a good way to make friends and influence people around here.

In addition, the vote system is somewhat impossible to alter I'd imagine. Given the trouble most servers have running the "Mutiny" option for commanders, having it for SLs would be a huge mistake. Besides, why bother when every member of the squad can just leave and form a new one?

"That's how it starts, Mas, with that warm happy feeling inside. Pretty soon you're rocking in the corner, a full grown dog addict, wondering where your next St Bernand is coming from..." - IAJTHOMAS
"Did they say what he's angry about?" asked Annette Mitchell, 77, of the district, stranded after seeing a double feature of "Piranha 3D" and "The Last Exorcism." - Washington Post
Colt556
Posts: 352
Joined: 2008-06-06 11:42

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by Colt556 »

[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:Admitting you're too damn lazy to read what other people are putting time and effort into is not a good way to make friends and influence people around here.

In addition, the vote system is somewhat impossible to alter I'd imagine. Given the trouble most servers have running the "Mutiny" option for commanders, having it for SLs would be a huge mistake. Besides, why bother when every member of the squad can just leave and form a new one?
I read almost every thread, but at the time I was busy and just wanted to get my idea in there.

It's also kinda lame to have to leave the squad and make a new one. I mean it splits up the team (6 squads of 3, instead of 3 squads of 6 type stuff) and not to mention that horrid sl can still get people to join his cause. Would just be best to remove him, and keep the squad intact.

It'd also be a waste of squad space to do what you suggested, and since you can only have 9 squads that'd be bad in big games. I can understand if it's just not doable, but it'd be really nice if it was. Would also be nice to get the good ol mutiny command back. Sometimes, you just need to remove the people in officer.
ostupidman
Posts: 208
Joined: 2008-05-13 15:03

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by ostupidman »

To be honest I've never really had trouble with a SL not getting an officer kit, well that wasn't new to the game anyway...but that's a different story. Most of the time if you get in a squad and the SL doesn't have an officer kit he gets one on the next spawn or at an APC or something. Generally if a SL doesn't have get an officer kit he has other plans, like to defend a main base or something of that nature and the squad is fine with it. If they aren't they go on to the next squad.
DeltaFart
Posts: 2409
Joined: 2008-02-12 20:36

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by DeltaFart »

i like this idea, ive seen it a bunch of times as a commander having an idiot as a sl and wasting assets just soloing the squad for kits. Drives me nuts, I usually ask them to join another squad and help them or I don't give him any support
example one guy was sitting outside the mec main post with a BTR while I Was telling people to leave the airfield and set up a defensive area around the flag, and he rolls up one manning BTR and starts shooting at a hill, then he wastes all that ammo and gets another BTR and shoots anoher hill. Thank god the A10 killed him
M.Warren
Posts: 633
Joined: 2007-12-24 13:37

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by M.Warren »

Colt556 wrote:I'm too lazy to read the thread, read most of the main post and I just gotta say this. Why not just add in a vote for squad members to remove a SL from his position? That'd be a lot easier then forcing the SL to go officer n whatnot. Not to mention the asshat SL's can still ruin it all by going engineer, or simply not using his officer kit right.
The idea is to help streamline the squads in Project Reality and limit useless "lame duck" Squad Leading from occuring as simply as possible. Of course this will not prevent every miniscule loophole from occuring.

The Engineer kit must be available to Squad Leaders atleast. Engineers are orientated around offering support more to the team than any other standard kit. Building bunkers, repairing Command Posts, repairing friendly vehicles, demolishing obstructions, demolishing enemy equipment and deploying mines against vehicles.

An Engineer's usefulness far exceeds the capabilities of a Medic or even a Rifleman, but simply at the loss of combat effectiveness. At some point, a squad leader may need it for himself one way or another. I know I have.
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Skodz
Posts: 791
Joined: 2007-05-26 06:31

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by Skodz »

In my opinion, best way to promote teamworking and communication is to wether create a VOIP/TS squad teamworking and kick every squad member who does not use VOIP/TS or teamwork...

Or join only squad teamworking and using VOIP/TS.

If most people do these simple things, lonewolves and asocial peoples who do not use VOIP or TS will be screwed and will wether stop playing it, remain all alone or start teamworking and using their mic!

Why are there "lazy" squad ? Because peoples join it. Stop it, there wont be anymore.
Last edited by Skodz on 2008-06-25 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
M.Warren
Posts: 633
Joined: 2007-12-24 13:37

Re: Commander and Squad Leader kit restrictions.

Post by M.Warren »

By the way, added some new pictures to make these claims abit more colorful.
Skodz wrote:In my opinion, best way to promote teamworking and communication is to wether create a VOIP/TS squad teamworking and kick every squad member who does not use VOIP/TS or teamwork...

Or join only squad teamworking and using VOIP/TS.

If most people do these simple things, lonewolves and asocial peoples who do not use VOIP or TS will be screwed and will wether stop playing it, remain all alone or start teamworking and using their mic!

Why are there "lazy" squad ? Because peoples join it. Stop it, there wont be anymore.
I wish that could happen though. But you know how it is, anti-social or loners do congregate in squads in number. So it's quite possible to hide in a useless squad all round. The above pictures are evidence to this occurance.

All that's left for us to do is modify the game in some manner to inhibit these occurances from happening as much as possible. Between "lame duck" Squad Leaders and One-Man-Armor, we can only hope these limitaion methods are devised and put into the anticipated v0.8 patch. Truely, certain aspects of gameplay has been in a downspiral from v0.6 and they've been running rampant ever since.

Curious about how to deal with loners in armor? One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's). If you care to spend the time to read it, there may a means to finally end that conflict aswell.
Last edited by M.Warren on 2008-06-25 20:29, edited 2 times in total.
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