'[R-MOD wrote:Masaq;714017']Yes yes, that's exactly what's happening. Cry cry, sob sob. Jeeze, do you do owt but complain about things that haven't even happened yet?
Well, of course, but each release the aircraft get nerfed even more, so it wouldn´t be surprising.
"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"
"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
Well do correct me please? this is the most advanced attack helicopter in the world and has never(to my knowledge) been shot down by an enemy AA.
During Operation Desert Storm on January 17, 1991, eight AH-64As guided by four MH-53 Pave Low IIIs, were used to destroy a portion of the Iraqi radar network to allow bomber aircraft into Iraq without detection.[2] This was the first attack of Desert Storm.[2] The Apaches carried an asymmetrical load of Hydra 70 flechette rockets, Hellfires, and one auxiliary fuel tank each.[8] During the 100-hour ground war, a total of 277 AH-64s took part. Apaches destroyed over 500 tanks, numerous armored personnel carriers and many other vehicles during Operation Desert Storm.[2]
dont think they had AAs?
During Operation Iraqi Freedom, some Apaches were damaged in combat, including one captured by Iraqi troops near Karbala on March 24, 2003, and shown on Iraqi television. The captured helicopter was destroyed via air strike the day after it was captured.[9] The March 24 attack, against an armored brigade of the Iraqi Republican Guard's Medina Division, was largely unsuccessful, apparently because the tank crews had set up a "flak trap" in broken terrain, employing their guns to good effect.
I take no responsibility for the current chopper situation. Anyways let me clarify. Handheld SAM's won't be as crazy as they are now. But the AAV's are going to be better by a larger margin. And here's a video for you chopper pilots:
Unfortunately so much of PR is guesswork as there simply hasnt been a conflict where Apache pilots have had to fly with hostile anti air vehicles nearby on a routine basis. Normally Radar and anti air is the first thing to be knocked out so air superiority can begin.
However ingame we don't have this need to seek out and destroy AA so air can get to work on the ground, and I think it needs it. By all means fly as high as you like if there is no AA present, but make it so the AA has to be destroyed first. I know AA supposedly had a hike to make it scarier, but its not enough imo, especially as a way of finding AAVs is to decoy their missiles at max range, then spotting them.
By all means beef up the helos, but I want to see them acting properly, rather than lounging around like gods on a well armoured cloud...
[R-CON]Alex6714 wrote:Well, of course, but each release the aircraft get nerfed even more, so it wouldn´t be surprising.
Oh and Alex, that simply isnt true. The introduction of laser targeting massively increased the effectiveness of airpower if your team owns the skies. (Look at NATO 1 vs CATA 2 on Quinling)
All that was made more difficult was the ability for aircrew to autonomously direct huge amounts of firepower. Having to get their team to play a part has reduced pilots 1337 status a little, and I don't think everyone likes it.
markonymous wrote:Well do correct me please? this is the most advanced attack helicopter in the world and has never(to my knowledge) been shot down by an enemy AA.
Have they been used againt an army with any decent equippement? Didnt think so...
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
Mescaldrav wrote:Oh and Alex, that simply isnt true. The introduction of laser targeting massively increased the effectiveness of airpower if your team owns the skies. (Look at NATO 1 vs CATA 2 on Quinling)
Errr... The laser targeting system came in 0.7(i think). It made jets completely reliable of ground forces. And the AA was made deadly. In 0.6 you could target whatever you wanted with your LGM's and the bombs could be dropped from any altitude and were "dumb". So compared to 0.6, 0.75 jets are terrible.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
Waaah_Wah wrote:Less range, damage, longer lock on time or a combination? Not less damage please... Transport chopters are surviving AA hits already
Then I most be cheating, since I can shoot 1 aa missile at transport helicopters and they blow up right away.
Example Basrah, ever seen the merlin survive the only single AA kit on the entire map?
mhmhmhm mister, I think less damage, enough to make it burn so pilots have a chance of survival by ejecting would be cool, never really use that parachute alot now are we
Sir.Saul wrote:Then I most be cheating, since I can shoot 1 aa missile at transport helicopters and they blow up right away.
Example Basrah, ever seen the merlin survive the only single AA kit on the entire map?
mhmhmhm mister, I think less damage, enough to make it burn so pilots have a chance of survival by ejecting would be cool, never really use that parachute alot now are we
Yes, a lot, and I thank god I had a great pilot like Glim to get us out before that second shot could be fired or an oportunistic RPG gunner could take another shot at us. I kind of agree with Alex on this one about the aircraft, they just lack lethality, sure, it's great they have to rely on the ground forces, but come on, they have their own systems in place to coordinate, Aircraft need a little bit of a buff IMHO.
Sir.Saul wrote:Then I most be cheating, since I can shoot 1 aa missile at transport helicopters and they blow up right away.
Example Basrah, ever seen the merlin survive the only single AA kit on the entire map?
mhmhmhm mister, I think less damage, enough to make it burn so pilots have a chance of survival by ejecting would be cool, never really use that parachute alot now are we
I tried this vs Hueys on the carrier once. I started up a local server, got the AA kit and fired a missile into the Huey. It didnt explode, yes it was smoking badly but it didnt blow up.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
Waaah_Wah wrote:I tried this vs Hueys on the carrier once. I started up a local server, got the AA kit and fired a missile into the Huey. It didnt explode, yes it was smoking badly but it didnt blow up.
I have fired a missile that hit an A-10 on a local server and didn´t even make it smoke. It is because it is on the ground near a repair source I think.
In any case, messing around on the training server I fired an AA missile that exploded 20 m away from a friendly cobra and blew it up, or when, on qwai I fired at the attack littlebird and blew it up, also taking with it the chinese bird that was engaging it.
"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"
"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
indeed it does, even used the aa-9 on the f16 (think it is named aa-9.. Well anyway it sure wasn't the aa-11)
Anyway, engaged a mec transport helicopter, 1 missile, BAM!
Would be cool that 1 aa missile is enough just to make them burn so you can jump out and watch the 5 other men inside your transport helicopter fall to the ground, or blow up in the sky due to the burning.
[quote=""'[R-MOD"]Masaq;713642']Alex, the other way to force the choppers low would be to have a proper range on an SAM or AAA system. Have it able to lock up choppers at very long range and give them a lock warning (indicating a radar lock) and reach out and hit them at 2km or so.
That'd force choppers to stay low to stay out of sight.
Then you can adjust tank ballistics to make it a little safer to be low.[/quote]
[quote="Sir.Saul""]Yes, nothing wrong with giving AA more range.
And no, it won't get the high hovering ability away, it would not make it harder for pilots anyway, since you can deploy counter meassures just a bit earlier, attracting missiles father away than usual.
But 2km? Ah come on, dont exaggerate.
Tactic is, when you are high enough for the missiles only, and not for the AA cannon (like the linebackers) you can deploy counter meassures while your gunner tries to search'n'destroy the AA, you just need to hold still and deploy counter meassures every time you get locked..
Remember you have around 10 packs of those counter meassures so when you reach 8 you can pull out and use the last 2 for cover..
Would work for me.[/quote]
[quote=""'[R-DEV"]CAS_117;713969']Flying low in will be a more desirable tactic in future releases.[/quote]
Although I am from the U.S. and the Metric system is not exactly that familiar to myself but 1,000 meters is 1 Kilometer.
For those that are familiar with AAV's you know that it has a maximum detection range of 1,200 meters. Slightly more than 1 Kilometer. So upping it to 2,000 meters being 2 Kilometers is only slapping another 800 meters ontop of what already exists.
As a seasoned AAV user, if it is upped to 2 Kilometers then that can only mean that choppers will be forced to use geography for cover and will require them to flank the enemy for an advantage. This will also increase the importance of having Forward Observers. Ground forces coordinating with attack helicopters has always been a part of reality.
Also as an additional note. The furthest rendering distance to the best of my knowledge is 1,200 meters (1.2 Kilometers.) which means that attack helicopters will have to do the same. Although if something is laser designated by ground forces, who know's?
Of course... Not to poke fun at Mora's or Alex's videos, but the players in those AAV's are rather lousy. Most of the time you can see them up at the front lines firing at enemy units. Although this is capable of occuring, as you can see the end result.
If you're going to use an AAV you'd best be spending 85% of the time staring up at the wild blue yonder. Not distracting yourself from enemy air units because you're preoccupied with "WTF PWNING" enemy infantry with your "Wanna-be One Man APC". Use it as it's intended or don't use it at all as other friendly units are counting on you, period.
Also be very careful while adjusting Tank ballistics against helicopters. In my personal opinion, if you are going to adjust anything in reguards to Tanks vs Helicopters I suggest to alter the munition handling. To adjust a Tanks accuracy simply for it's capability to engage helicopters would be a rather costly decision as it will impact too many other circumstances.
Like it is in reality, in order for a Tank to have the greatest chances of dropping an enemy Helicopter is must be done with a High Explosive shell. Armor piercing does just that, it will puncture clean through the aluminum skin of the Helicopter with little collateral damage. Although the alternate factor is where the AP shot location lands will determine the fate of the helicopter. However, a High Explosive shell will cause massive damage to the helicopter in almost any situation, causing the on-board munitions to detonate, fuel cells to explode, injury to the pilots, or the structural integrity of the airframe to fail.
'[R-DEV wrote:CAS_117;714117']I take no responsibility for the current chopper situation. Anyways let me clarify. Handheld SAM's won't be as crazy as they are now. But the AAV's are going to be better by a larger margin. And here's a video for you chopper pilots:
Although you probably haven't got too much reason at this point I guess.
[quote="Sir.Saul""]Well CAS said it, end of discussion, see you guys on the pub
AAARGH GOD! I hate dev's method of foreplay, teasing you but not giving you full pleasure until next month is torture![/quote]
For those of you who have not had the privilege of flying along side of [R-DEV]CAS_117 I assure you, he's quite the airman you'd want to have responsible for taking care of our aircraft in Project Reality. I have spent some good rounds with him as a friendly pilot in the sky and it ran like clockwork.
It's a shame that not all of our developers share the same view or intrests as he does for our valued air assets. He's not to blame for the way things are now, after all he wasn't even an [R-DEV] at the time of v0.75's release if my memory serves me right.
But like he's already explained, don't worry everything will be allright. I'd certainly take his word for it as the man's on point, trust me.
[R-CON]Alex6714 wrote:I have fired a missile that hit an A-10 on a local server and didn´t even make it smoke. It is because it is on the ground near a repair source I think.
In any case, messing around on the training server I fired an AA missile that exploded 20 m away from a friendly cobra and blew it up, or when, on qwai I fired at the attack littlebird and blew it up, also taking with it the chinese bird that was engaging it.
I've spent alot of time flying on a private training session and noted many things about Air to Air missles. Unless you've spent time trying to get familiar with it, it'll seem as a very unpredictable munition.
Air to Air missles cause damage based upon what target type it is, and the amount of distance it travels before it arms. To put it bluntly, after it arms it has quite a massive explosion radius against air units only. To use it against any ground vehicle or against infantry would yield little to no results. Air to Air missles don't kill pilots and the occupants, the explosion of the air vehicle itself is what causes this effect.
Besides, if we remember how it was back in Stock BF2 AA emplacements were designed to be useless against anything other than aircraft. This was so people don't go firing AA missles at vehicles as that is what the TOW is for.
I do agree with most of your points warren, almost all the AAVs I see are how you describe them. Everyone complains how hard it is to shoot someone down, but the reality is that they just don't know how to. When I go on qwai or jabal and get an aa kit most choppers don't survive.
I hope the choppers get balaced with some of their real life power.
Also, the aa missiles do low damage to vehicles on the ground, but wherever it hits it has a huge blast radius. Believe me, it can be the perfect anti infantry weapon in the right situations. However, it is hard to use against ground targets unless you are in a jet, in which case aa missiles are a fantastic strafing weapon against infantry.
"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"
"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
Well now we are on the topic of AA's, they don't always have to function as a aircraft destroyer. Many times when I got a AAV or AA-kit, I usually just lock on to whatever aircraft there is and watch them fly away in terror, could shoot but the chance of him not releasing counter meassures is so small I wont bother till I'm about 85% sure that I can hit him.
Also increasing AA's radius from 1200m to 2000m is major, I remember setting in a deployed AA in kashan, american base.
When I had a lock on a aircraft for more than 1000m it was already at the mountains at north village. (You know the little hill where you drive down to NV)
Increasing it to 2000 would be like you are taking off in a Blackhawk and already get locked on from North Village???
Increasing from 1200 to 1400 would be around the amount of fair in my eyes. Remember that instead of going high into the numbers, start at the small and work your way up slowly to the place you find fair.
Okay.. Handheld AA doesnt take out Hueys in one hit. I've played a round on Jabal, where i was camping the beach with the MEC AA kit. A Huey took off, i locked on and fired, it didnt even flare so my missile hit it dead on. The chopter just started smoking and flew back to the carrier. This happened twise.
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience
Waaah_Wah wrote:Okay.. Handheld AA doesnt take out Hueys in one hit. I've played a round on Jabal, where i was camping the beach with the MEC AA kit. A Huey took off, i locked on and fired, it didnt even flare so my missile hit it dead on. The chopter just started smoking and flew back to the carrier. This happened twise.
Seriously now, it can vary depending on the situation, but most helis I shoot with the handheld AA die in one shot, unless they are good pilots with flares, in which case sometimes they avoid.
"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"
"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
Jaymz
