make interesting Infantry envirnments

[Lynx]

This post originally came out of me getting very bored with the maps as there's never enough good free standing cover enough for a fireteam to hide behind.

(boxes don't count cause when you go prone then turn, your feet get shot off
roadblocks are good but not large enough to hold more than one person)

when I play Urban paintball or tactical FPS games like first to fight, band of brothers and full spectrum warrior. There's always good cover to be found. I'm talking about:
cars
LARGE fallen logs
dead cows
and other things that you can shoot over and around

so here are the kind environments I would be delighted to find:
*big parking lots with scattered with static cars
*streets 1/2 way full of parallel parked cars
*LARGE indoor office farms (in which your enemy could hide whilst prone but can be shot through the cubicle boards)
*a police station interior which has bullet proof glass
*farms with scattered hay bails and dead cows to hide behind
*forest areas which has a number of downed trees (due to a storm or something)
*bullet proof vehicle checkpoint booth

An area loaded with free standing cover makes for an interesting strategic challenge and actually forces you think as you direct your fireteams to fix, flank and finish the enemy.

let me give you a good example of what I'm talking about:
2 squads converge against each other In a parking lot which has scattered vehicles each squad will need to out maneuver the other to get the upper hand.
to do this best a squad leader would need to intelligently move his fire teams like chess pieces. usually have one to suppress and pin the enemy's heads down and another fireteam to run around to hit the suppressed enemy from the sides

ALSO I'd also like to make a proposal for general game changes to give infantry more of a chance to survive:

*more static cars in city maps
*civilian vehicles do not explode (gas doesn't ignite from standard bullets, even steel jacketed ones)
*vehicle wrecks stay for longer periods to create those dynamic soldier environments that I loved to play infantry in PR v0.5
*land rover vehicle wreckage is lowered to allow infantry to take cover behind it
*create a guard checkpoint booth static with bullet proof glass
*increase distance and power of grenades
*tone down the suppression effect a bit for better gameplay
*this is a big one: bullets from yourself or from friendlies that are next to you will not cause suppression effect

I mean I'm standing next to a squad mate he fires at a hostile and I can't see.
That's just wrong.
also shooting through some windows causes suppression effect too.

I'm hoping this would all lead to better game play
cheers!

[Aestabjoo]

G'day mate,

Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but cars (or rather, the metal cars are made out of) don't stop bullets. Cars act as nothing more than concealment - they offer little to not protection.

Same with dead cows, hay bails, cubile walls and tree's, they'd offer concealment, but no protection at all.

Now, I'm not saying these wouldn't be great additions into the game - the game certainly needs more/better/larger concealment for troops, but I'd be very disapointed if they added these features in without consideration to the stopping power of the material you're hiding behind.

The problem with adding any object into the map is RAM for the low end players (AFAIK - could be mistaken.)
I think Civilian vehicles should continue to be explodable.
I agree with your vehicle wreckage idea, they should stay for longer.
I also agree that the suppression effect should be toned down a little.
I don't agree with the no-friendly-suppression. If someone's stupid enough to shoot the ground next to you, there should be ramifications.

[Lynx]

no worries mate my bubble isn't bursting yet
well modern cars have a thin skin that wouldn't stop much
but what about If you take refuge in behind the engine block? only .50 cal would make it through that. also I didn't mean that cubicle walls cows or hay bails could stop bullets I said these things would be great to hide behind and that games I like to play allow you to use some of them as cover

other kinds of cover could be used to improve gameplay

... and I was just thinking about how a shootout in a cubicle farm would be like a deadly game of cat and mouse since you could shoot through the maze of walls

also: about suppression ya know that suppression effect that Red orchestra or brothers in arms had? the dirt and dust would get kicked in your face when bullets impacted the ground around you and it was perfect! -and made sense.
the devs would've been much better off choosing that

[Alex6714]

no worries mate my bubble isn't bursting yet
well modern cars have a thin skin that wouldn't stop much
but what about If you take refuge in behind the engine block? only .50 cal would make it through that.

I have seen an airsoft gun using metal 6mm BBs firing at 1000 FPS powered by gas go through car doors and glass. So I don´t think an AK will have too much trouble.

[Lynx]

I have seen an airsoft gun using metal 6mm BBs firing at 1000 FPS powered by gas go through car doors and glass. So I don´t think an AK will have too much trouble.

I said an engine block would, a bullet pass through an engine block?
you know, the engine compartment and the wheels which are all made of strong heavy metal designed to take punishment.
small arms fire can't go through all that except the m82 which I know is used in part to disable engines.

current bubble status: still un-bursted

don't believe me? check this video out of a guy shooting the baby jesus out of his girlfriend's car
http://www.videotiger.com/badguyvideo.shtml
there are entry holes on one side of the engine compartment but no exit holes on the other

result: static cars would make great cover and should be more common on PR maps =)
. . . ok "great" is an overstatement

[Cyrax-Sektor]

A while back, map makers considered what the community wanted in maps. Just about everyone wanted cover for that intense urban environment, ducking from cover to cover while your squad oversees the area.

[ostupidman]

.50 cal won't pass through and through on an engine block usually. It's just to big of a chunk of metal with to many odd angles for the round to pass through.

[Lynx]

A while back, map makers considered what the community wanted in maps. Just about everyone wanted cover for that intense urban environment, ducking from cover to cover while your squad oversees the area.

and what happened to that?
did the map makers say: hmm... interesting ...on second thought, naaaw F*CK the community LOL

[Cyrax-Sektor]

and what happened to that?
did the map makers say: hmm... interesting ...on second thought, naaaw F*CK the community LOL

Well, I'm doing my best with the statics I've got to make cover. Seems like people like making big maps however, making it harder to make good cover without reusing stuff too much. I prefer small maps, so I'm making a small urban city map.

Here's the thread: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... azors.html

[Bringerof_D]

i agree with everything exept the last 3, and anywas yes its been mythbuster proven that cars dont stop bullets except for the engine block. the block is pretty much solid metal peices glued together at wierd angles and intervals, even 50 cals dont always penetrate, only incindiary 50 cal rounds can get a high chance (maybe even 30-06 incindiary).

[Gore]

Military vehicles are usually armored in some way, and offers alot more protection than your average Opel Kadett.

It's a good idea in that nice big urban environment, with scattered vehicles, that they don't explode by bullet fire. Thinking about the guy who goes prone with his MG, and just laying fire on all the vehicles he can see.. Problem solved - at his end.

Vehicle wrecks should stay throughout the game... I can't see why not.

Yeah, PR police station shootout...

- I'll be back.

[Lynx]

Cyrax You R MY BRO!
in since PR has become Mostly MONSTER sized maps
there's not been much effort to fill them up totaly

I saw this one MASSIVE urban city map that was like the extraction map in the previous build except ...
It was huge and full of crooked streets and construction materials like metal pipes and bombed cars

There were still helicopters and apcs that went into the city but there were many bridges and road-blocked choke points so that the vehicles had to move slow and infantry had the upper hand in a chaotic urban jungle Most of the building's were short no higher than a power station and dense fog clouded the area

Also the city was built on a hill that extended obove a canyon that would lead to certain death

sadly i forgot the name of this map but it was FRIGGIN AWSOME!!!

like a police shootout with armored vehicles and black hawks thrown in

[Sgt_carbonero]

i have a feeling the amount of geometries (statics) are limited, so you can't have too many hulks/wrecks/stuff lying about.

devs please chime in.

[[T]Terranova7]

Anyone remember "Street". Small, but the environment was literally perfect. Cover in every alley you walked down. I would love to see something like that replicated on a larger scale. I do agree with the overall suggestion.

Traveling on Al Basrah you're limited to running from building to building, which means crossing the streets of no man's land. It makes any sort of urban movement excessively difficult. Add to that the lack of interior, open ended structures and you're likely to die every time to try to move around on foot within the city. There definitely needs to be more cover & concealment to allow for increased versatility within the urban cities.

Also in terms of the suppression. I believe the next release will have it so that the suppression effect only kicks in after 10 or 15 meters. Making CQB a lot clearer and helping to avoid any suppression from nearby friendlies shooting the tree next to you.

[MrD]

Obviously the main issue with PR and even ArmA over the older JOTR is that there is no natural cover to dive into. Objects need to be placed to represent this. Mappers should think about placing statics that are mounds, fitting in with the environment, to represent the countryside. After all, the country isn't as flat as tarmac!

Many a time I've had people in JOTR trying to get to a cp and seeing me off a couple of hundred metres to the side and I take a lot of fire and dive into natural cover and stay down, eventually the enemy can't be bothered to chase after one guy when they are on their way to a cp and they just move on, leaving me still alive. I miss this in PR and ArmA. There just is no realistic cover because of the way the game engines were made.

Combined with modern forces use of camouflage, even in daylight an advancing force can frequently find itself walking right into the middle of the enemy before the shooting starts. It's called ambush and there is so little of that realism seen in the modern games.

So, since the engine cannot make natural groundcover, maybe it is time for the mappers to look into adding cover as statics? I'm not sure what the cost to lag and pc power is, but maybe the idea of a static is to go all out with pretty objects when what we need is a store of ugly objects that sit on the battlefield and make up for the lack of natural terrain?


examples :

1) a small section of fencing, old and broken looking, clumps of grass near the base.
2) a pile of rubbish. old wood, metal, dumped doors and fridges
3) a mound of earth with grass clumps on it representing the earth moved form a man made structure nearby, such as roads, cleared area, etc
4) low ruins of old buildings, sheds, garages. enough to cover a soldier lying down
5) a small allotment/garden made by locals in a fertile area with turned up soil and crops.

[Lynx]

good ideas guys,
Also I want to point out that war zones often have no garbage pick up so the streets could be littered with random junk and it would make sense.
like heavy metal stove's might be able to be able to be used as cover.

and construction materials like a stack of I beams would be good cover too

I would love a map like street but with a lot more crooked streets
and what if the defenders made a makeshift fortification out of I beams?

also,
one thing I hated about muttrah is that it was so clean and sterile that there was no cover and the enemy would just sit on a high rooftop and slaughter troops who had no place to hide behind. everything was so open you left feeling exposed and bored of the same corner sweeps. though some areas had some cover but most were just empty streets

[Evsoul]

G'day mate,

Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but cars (or rather, the metal cars are made out of) don't stop bullets. Cars act as nothing more than concealment - they offer little to not protection.

Same with dead cows, hay bails, cubile walls and tree's, they'd offer concealment, but no protection at all.

Now, I'm not saying these wouldn't be great additions into the game - the game certainly needs more/better/larger concealment for troops, but I'd be very disapointed if they added these features in without consideration to the stopping power of the material you're hiding behind.

The problem with adding any object into the map is RAM for the low end players (AFAIK - could be mistaken.)
I think Civilian vehicles should continue to be explodable.
I agree with your vehicle wreckage idea, they should stay for longer.
I also agree that the suppression effect should be toned down a little.
I don't agree with the no-friendly-suppression. If someone's stupid enough to shoot the ground next to you, there should be ramifications.

I agree. Some buddies and I were at our friend's house (lives on a huge ranch) and used his semi auto M4 to shoot up an old vw bug.. and lets say it shot the shit out of it.. holes all the way through some went through the seats and out the other side. Now I am not saying a vw bug is a good example of how well a car can stop or not stop bullets.. but it just shows the metal in cars aren't designed to prevent piercing bullets.. especially some of the cars you find in the game.. (middle of the desert old 80's hondas and toyota looking rides )

But I like where the original post is going.. I vote for way more high grass foliage in certain areas to help with staying low when trying to get sneak by enemy.. I was playing last night with a few very good players and we were lucky enough to go prone in some high grass along a wall as a Humvee drove by.. I thought that was absolutely awesome how realistic it was that they couldn't see us and continued to drive off.

But eitherway PR team, AWESOME JOB with the new .756 setup.. I haven't played it since .4 or 5 (dead gaming system) and now that I got this game running I will never go back to COD4.

[Bringerof_D]

I agree. Some buddies and I were at our friend's house (lives on a huge ranch) and used his semi auto M4 to shoot up an old vw bug.. and lets say it shot the shit out of it.. holes all the way through some went through the seats and out the other side. Now I am not saying a vw bug is a good example of how well a car can stop or not stop bullets.. but it just shows the metal in cars aren't designed to prevent piercing bullets.. especially some of the cars you find in the game.. (middle of the desert old 80's hondas and toyota looking rides )

But I like where the original post is going.. I vote for way more high grass foliage in certain areas to help with staying low when trying to get sneak by enemy.. I was playing last night with a few very good players and we were lucky enough to go prone in some high grass along a wall as a Humvee drove by.. I thought that was absolutely awesome how realistic it was that they couldn't see us and continued to drive off.

But eitherway PR team, AWESOME JOB with the new .756 setup.. I haven't played it since .4 or 5 (dead gaming system) and now that I got this game running I will never go back to COD4.

actually older cars should have if anything more stopping power than new cars what with new composite materials that are lighter and strong but not impact proof materials, in older cars there is more metal

still it wont stop bullets but i justw anted to point that out the whole a 9mm can probably make it through one side but not out the other.

and no them not seeing you isnt that realistic, if you were lying on grass the grass would be under you not sticking up through you like in game, so they would see grass, patch of no grass with a man in it, and more grass

[Lynx]

we can debate this to death, I still think engine block and wheels offer some cover and we can debate this to death but lets not.

I was really hoping to know if you guys knew the map I described in the quote \/ It was USMC vs MEC and a PR beta map

Cyrax You R MY BRO!
in since PR has become Mostly MONSTER sized maps
there's not been much effort to fill them up totaly

I saw this one MASSIVE urban city map that was like the extraction map in the previous build except ...
It was huge and full of crooked streets and construction materials like metal pipes and bombed cars

There were still helicopters and apcs that went into the city but there were many bridges and road-blocked choke points so that the vehicles had to move slow and infantry had the upper hand in a chaotic urban jungle Most of the building's were short no higher than a power station and dense fog clouded the area

Also the city was built on a hill that extended obove a canyon that would lead to certain death

sadly i forgot the name of this map but it was FRIGGIN AWSOME!!!

like a police shootout with armored vehicles and black hawks thrown in