Future M249 SAW replacement

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-26 03:36

I'm not exactly sure when the m249 saw is being replaced, but the USMC has announced they are looking for replacement lmg's. I read an article about it at work and though I don't remember all the requirements the USMC put out, I know the M249 didn't make most of these as is.

The article was about the most likely replacement, the CIS Ultimax 100, and it is a very amazing gun. Now, I don't know if you guys are willing to add it in because of how good the SAW is and because this particular LMG is so much better. The guns most amazing feature is the use of "constant recoil." I don't exactly remember how it works, but I do remember what it resulted in. Somehow with this recoil, the gun doesn't rise or move to the left or to the right. In fact, the recoil is so minimal that it can fired at certain ranges while standing upright with one hand!

Though this isn't the defenit replacement, it does meet or exceed every single requirement the USMC has put out except for one. It doesn't yet have an adapter so it can take M16 magazines.

These are the only two requirements I remember and what I remember about the Ultimax.

requirement/ultimax
weight w/o ammo: 15lb/10.78lb
sustained rate of fire: 36rpm/60rpm

Here's an article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimax_100

Animalmother · Post by **Animalmother** » 2006-03-26 04:05

Im sure the recoil system will probably be put in with the SAW replacement. But the USMC might give it some sort of star wars look like everything else the military is comming up with lol.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-26 04:11

Leik teh XM-8, m i rite?

The FN SCAR actually looks normal.

CIS Ultimax 100 sounds awesome, but has quite a cheesy name

Here's some prettier pictures (in comparison to the one found in the wiki article)

AznLB · Post by **AznLB** » 2006-03-26 04:22

I don't really care for the Ultimax, looks too old to me, and is made in Singapore, you know how shitty all that Asian stuff is made.

Anyway, "Ultimax" sounds like a brand of Tampons.

I reckon it will be a good many years before the SAW is replaced.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-26 04:34

Damn, didn't even notice lonelyjew posted a pic. XD

six7 · Post by **six7** » 2006-03-26 04:49

is the SAw 5.56 or 7.62? the wiki article says the ultimax is 5.56, but that seems like an awefully small round for a LMG

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-26 04:50

SAW is 5.56, but the Mk. 48 is 7.62

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 2006-03-26 05:27

OMG

Why am I getting mental images of a large cage, where a GMPG and a Tommy Gun were locked into it, and weren't let out until they shagged eachother senseless, and had messed up kids?

Sounds like Texas actually.....

Resjah · Post by **Resjah** » 2006-03-26 05:34

'[R-PUB wrote:Gaz']OMG

Why am I getting mental images of a large cage, where a GMPG and a Tommy Gun were locked into it, and weren't let out until they shagged eachother senseless, and had messed up kids?

Sounds like Texas actually.....

ahahaha, i can see what you mean

Post by **RikiRude** » 2006-03-26 05:40

'[R-PUB wrote:Gaz']OMG

Why am I getting mental images of a large cage, where a GMPG and a Tommy Gun were locked into it, and weren't let out until they shagged eachother senseless, and had messed up kids?

Sounds like Texas actually.....

hahah! i was thinking the samething as i loooked at pictures of that.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-26 07:09

After reading the article on the requirement list for the SAW replacement, i believe ultimax satisfy almost all of the required criteria. And i believe Sullivan still hasn't lost his touch with his design, and he designed one hell of a piece of equipment with this one.

After watching the weapon fired with live ammo with ONE hand in burst shots, i have to say i am quite impressed. I was most impressed not by the constant recoil system though but rather on how simple the weapon construction is, the weapon supposedly is so simple that it can be disassembled and reassembled in mere minutes. I like weapons that keep things simple, if this thing can indeed reach the claimed accuracy, then hell yeah this should replace the SAW on the earliest opportunity.

Peter-SAS · Post by **Peter-SAS** » 2006-03-26 13:56

AznLB wrote:I don't really care for the Ultimax, looks too old to me, and is made in Singapore, you know how shitty all that Asian stuff is made.

as opposed to American components?

00SoldierofFortune00 · Post by **00SoldierofFortune00** » 2006-03-26 18:04

I don't think the Army or USMC are looking for Squad Automatic Weapons with only 100 round magazines. That is one of the problems I heard the Army was looking at when they had the XM-8 SAW varient. 100 rounds is not enough to make it a true Squad Automatic Weapon for combat and support,
but I maybe wrong here though.

IMO, they should of just updated the M240 or adopted the updated M60E4 which is being used by the Navy Seals, which can be seen here.

http://www.usord.com/M60E4_USORD.html

They have a video out that has an M60E4 that is firing on full auto for a whole minute and 45 seconds I believe which was pretty amazing while the operator was able to still control it.

Here is the video here at the bottom of this page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun

Or the direct link here, but there maybe some offense adds on the top.

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/11356784 ... achine_Gun

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2006-03-27 01:11

Hey zeph, can you list the USMC requirements for the m249 replacement?

Soldier, I think that one of the requirements was a clear magazine for the gun so you could see your remaining ammo. I also think the ultimax would be more than capable of being belt fed with a box of ammunition though I personally would prefer drums of ammo that could be quickly loaded. With drums I think the weapon doesn't get gunked up so fast.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-27 02:51

weigh less than 12.5 pound empty (excluding accessory and magazine), 10.5 pound ideal weight.

fires 5.56 mm round with sustained rate of fire of 36 rpm, 75 rpm ideal. sustained rate of fire here is defined as the rate the weapon can fire indefinitely without sustaining malfunction such as but not limited to: cook off, or accuracy loss.

capable of selective firing mode in either semi automatic or full firing

uses 100 round magazine to permit the ideal condition for rapid visual determination of remaining round, and also to allow easier reload procedure. (current SAW requires 2 hand to reload).

it also must accept standard M16A4 30 rnd magazine.

posses an adjustable, collapsible, detachable bipod.

there were more but these were the only ones i can ask quickly, the whole article on the requirement appeared on an arms magazine that were distributed during the SHOT weapon show recently.

also note that the reason that they put forward the new SAW replacement criteria is because the SAW in use with US armed forces is generally over 10 years old, not very old for a firearms but old enough that they are beginning to show signs of reduced reliability. Some were reported to jam and others requiring multiple part replacement recently.

http://www.fedbizopps.gov//spg/DON/USMC ... psisR.html

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-03-27 03:11

I wonder how soon, if ever, we'll see this Ultimax 100 being used by marines

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-27 03:15

to note, as of now there's no winner on the proposed replacement yet, so it's not as if ultimax is declared de facto winner or anything. it does however satisfy almost all of the criteria and during the early days when the US armed forces needed an LMG that leads to the adoption of SAW, ultimax was among the contender, and some of the judges back then favours ultimax. With ultimax reaching the mk4 model and satisfying the criteria, many then speculated that they are likely to be chosen as a replacement for SAW, but none of these are solid yet.

oh, this is an article of it on the web:
http://www.fedbizopps.gov//spg/DON/USMC ... psisR.html

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2006-03-27 03:18

If they adapted it to fire belts over single seperate rounds I'm sure they'd have a sure fire winner (pardon the poor pun). When I saw the photo I just thought "FAL with a bipod and Tommy gun like grip". Looks interesting, little long though, like the FAL was. No doubt they'll have smaller versions like the PARA version of the SAW.

Zepheris Casull · Post by **Zepheris Casull** » 2006-03-27 03:25

in my oppinion though, their non usage of dissintegrating link is one of their major advantage because linked rounds tend to pick up other things u don't want into the gun as well, and means more cleaning and more chance of jamming in the field.

if the claim on ultimax drum magazine being the most reliable drum magazine is true, and judging from the report claim of their usage in the field by the singapore's armed forces i tend to believe that, then i'd say there's no loss what so ever and we even gained from the move away of dissintegrating link box mag.

oh, ultimax is the same length as SAW, at 41 inches btw.

and the manufacturer specs says there's an optional 13 inch PARA barrel, or 10.5 inch VIP protection, as opposed to the 20 inch normal barrel length. SAW has 20 inch normal barrel and optional 15 inch barrel for use in PARA model i believe.