Commander being removed?

[MrYellow]

What is the current thinking on the commander?

As of 0.8 someone would have to be a complete masochist to consider hitting
apply on the commander button. It's the most boring and frustrating game
anyone could possibly play.

Is it true that the only function of the commander is to approve mortar strikes?

He can't build.
He can't see the map (the proper map that normal ppl use)
He's completely ham-strung...
Can't lead from the front.
Can't get involved in the game at all really.

Far as I can figure commander slot is really only for ppl that like self
harm atm.... What is it's purpose?

-Ben

[<1sk>Headshot]

Co-ordination between squads, having a grasp of the bigger picture, issuing orders, contact markers etc. Commanders have plenty to do on a server where teamwork is used and CO orders are followed. I've never played any Aus servers mainly because of ping but try and have a go on a lot of different servers and you'll see how much they all vary greatly.

A lot of people really like commanding and having control of the batlefield in an RTS style environment.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the CO will NEVER be removed as long as there is a PR and servers out there who focus on teamplay.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

If people see the commander ONLY as a source of build orders and area strikes like the vBF2 commander than yes, it kind of defeats the purpose of even having a commander. HOWEVER it is not the case in PR.

He is suppose to command and coordinate assaults/defense, he isn't bob the builder.
It's a big difference and quite a lot of fun when there is a commander present who actually organizes squads and execute ambushes, pincher attacks/ other formation or successfully defend a CP from an enemy using TACTICs instead of a mouse clicking match between a couple of people.

Also, he still can see the map if he goes to his control post IRC.

In conclusion, the commander plays a vital and important role for a successful and enjoyable game. Commanding isn't for everyone, people who are impatient, lack common sense/creativity or can't see the big picture behind commanding should not apply.

edit: dang it... beat me to it

[Smegburt_funkledink]

Well said H3adshot.

The commander can help squads combine efforts if teamspeak isn't being used by the squad leaders etc...

I've only CO'd a couple times in 0.8, It's a fairly valiable role on maps such as Barracuda. Pilots need to hear feedback on enemy positions and AA placements or get reports that LZs are clear.

Sniper/recon squads are twice as usefull to the whole team if there's a commander around, just try it out a few more times Mr Yellow, you'll come to understand his usefullness.

[MrYellow]

Maybe aussies play different.... After all we have a history for being
irreverent and in the distant past didn't even salute officers.

Let me explain how the commander is used on aussie servers.

No one ever plays it. They see no point as the squads know their
jobs and don't need to be micro-managed from above. With no features
available apart from markers and mortar strikes it's simply easier to work
with rifles and leave the commander spot blank. A mortar strike simply
isn't worth the hassles involved with playing that slot.

So if we need a commander for anything a squad leader will leave their
squad and become commander for 1-2mins then switch back to squad commander.
Sucks.

I can see that the US style of play would involve a lot more commands
coming down and structure from above. However we simply don't need that, we
don't need a commander telling us where to go, each squad commander has his
map and brain, which is plenty to see the gaps that need to be filled.
Instead we need a commander that has enough to do and is allowed
to do normal things so they can actually participate in the game.

The best fun and most efficient use of the commander is the one running
along the front with his squads building assets and bringing up support as
needed. He has an overview of the battle because he is there, he knows
where the shooting is because he's there. This is fun for us. A commander
with any and all features removed that allow him to get into the field does
not suit the style of play I see nightly at all.

No one plays commander here.

Maybe they will start when the commander is allowed to be in the field again.

-Ben

[NL_van_Speijk]

Two words: Kashan. Desert.

A good commander is a huge (I daresay game-winning) asset on this map.

[MrYellow]

I've only CO'd a couple times in 0.8, It's a fairly
valiable role on maps such as Barracuda. Pilots need to hear feedback on
enemy positions and AA placements or get reports that LZs are clear.

We don't use commander for this. Instead the air power is in a squad with
their spotters so coms are completely open.

PRC_Heavy_Z]
In conclusion, the commander plays a vital and important role for a
successful and enjoyable game. Commanding isn't for everyone, people who
are impatient, lack common sense/creativity or can't see the big picture
behind commanding should not apply.

Funny this is actually the role I often like to play, and I'm creative and
intelligent enough to do it thanx..... However the commander position
doesn't offer it anymore as you can't get into the field. You *have* to be
in your CP to do anything, which it seems doesn't suit any aussie commander
as we went from having one most games, to never having one at all.

-Ben

[Truism]

Australians play differently.

The game is much faster paced, less time is spent on things that aren't vital, the whole thing is more aggressive and streamlined. There's a real rifleman culture - if everyone does their job right, then that team will win. There's no room for a commander in that philosophy - an extra rifle on the ground is more valuable. Additionally, there's a fairly dominant hierarchy in Australian servers - everyone knows everyone, and if a commander weren't from SiN, WC or BD, he'd probably have a tough time getting squads to operate quickly on his orders. Beyond this, the average quality of squad leaders is much, much higher on Australian servers (but the standard deviation is higher too :\ ). The odds are that the leaders of squads will not only know what the other squads are likely to do (based on their position and who's leading them), but their tactical awareness is good enough that they are able to consistantly pick the right course of action.

Additionally, something I have noticed about American servers is that there is almost a sense that the whole thing is a role play aimed at realism. People tend not to act in the most efficient way, but instead in the most realistic way, the way they'd expect a soldier to act. It works, but I honestly don't think it works as well in terms of winning as the way Australians play it (as a game, with rules that allow unrealistic actions to be rewarded with wins).

I mostly play American servers these days (TG mostly), firstly because my sleeping patterns suit it better, and secondly because the style of play is more fun.

[Smegburt_funkledink]

Maybe aussies play different....

So if we need a commander for anything a squad leader will leave their
squad and become commander for 1-2mins then switch back to squad commander.

So if Squad A has no anti-arma capabilities but wants to report a precise position of an enemy tank... meh.

I'm sure we could go on forever about different situations where a commander would help greatly with reports, map locations etc...

No one plays commander here.

If you learned to command, the Aussies would love you on the servers. There is no end to the help he can provide. He can only provide this help if the squad leaders actually communicate with him though. Try it again and encourage the SL's to provide you with intel, which you will provide to those that need it.

[MadTommy]

I've played commander quite a few times, and this is what i've found. (and i'm not a self harmer)

Its benefit is governed by the map and team you are on. For example on Qinling it can be very useful and rewarding. As Brits on Basrah.. generally a waste of time.

The commanders main role is organising multiple squad attacks and defences. Liaising between CAS and infantry. And generally passing on information throughout the team.

On some maps this is just not needed and on others it makes a huge difference.

[MrYellow]

So if Squad A has no anti-arma capabilities but wants to report a precise position of an enemy tank... meh.

I'm sure we could go on forever about different situations where a commander would help greatly with reports, map locations etc...



If you learned to command, the Aussies would love you on the servers. There is no end to the help he can provide. He can only provide this help if the squad leaders actually communicate with him though. Try it again and encourage the SL's to provide you with intel, which you will provide to those that need it.

It's not about learning to command mate. We have plenty that have the skill.
It's about style of play not matching the current commander "from bars 3000
miles away" setup.

The point I'm making is we *want* the commander, we want to be able to
relay commands like that. However with the current feature set given to the
commander it is a great disincentive for anyone to play that slot as they
are so restricted in what they can do.

To my understanding the commander is currently forced to be in his CP and
nowhere else. This can't be right as a restriction. Ok heres a simple
question that shouldn't result in "Learn how to command noob".

Why should the commander be restricted to his CP in this way?

-Ben

[MrYellow]

If you learned to command, the Aussies would love you on the servers.

We have commanders. This isn't a small group, big realism war gaming
community in Australia. We have people with the skills who *want* to play
the slot. However they won't play the slot in it's current state as it's
just too frustrating not being able to see or partisipate on the
battlefield except via map view.

-Ben

[LtSoucy]

He can't build.
He gives the build orders
He can't see the map (the proper map that normal ppl use)
He sees a better one in his command post
He's completely ham-strung...
Can't lead from the front.
Thats for the Squad Leaders, not the commander.
Can't get involved in the game at all really.
He has he biggest role. He is involved in every detail.

[<1sk>Headshot]

All this talk about CO leading from the front brings back such bad memories of 0.6 - I think it was - when the CO was the only one who could build and spent 99% of his time driving into hostile territory with his CO truck playing Bob the builder . It'd be interesting to arrange a scrim between Aus comunity and TG for example (only because that's where I spend my time), interesting to see the two completely different playstyles match up due to the total segregation of the two communities.

I'd go as far to say

Sniper/recon squads are ONLY usefull to the whole team if there's a commander around.

Especially in scrims and such, recon squads can be so, so useful in co-ordinating and focussing the overall team effort.

[LtSoucy]

true very true, the convoys of CO trucks were the best.


By the way, the commander role is hardcoded as part of squads in BF2 right?

[bad_nade]

He gives the build orders

Nope. He accepts build order requests. Direct build order was removed in .8

[Smegburt_funkledink]

Of course, If you Aussies are using teamspeak or something similar, I guess it's not as much of a problem.

We managed to pwn the Devs & ABA guys (sorry to mention this again ) without a commander at the LAN fest. It was the first time I used teamspeak and it worked great at giving our fellow squads vital info etc...

[Dunehunter]

Had an awesome round on TG on Kashan last night. Partly due to the awesome squad I was in ofcourse, but also because we had a commander who really did his job. So if we spotted a humvee convoy going somewhere, he knew, and soon the rest of the team did too. And if we needed extraction, we could count on a helicopter coming to pick us up.

[Noobofthenight]

^

I have a feeling I was commanding then, I was definately commanding Kashan last night, and I remember seeing a dev driving an APC? No idea.

I found the role quite entertaining actually, lots of coordination required.

[<1sk>Headshot]

I was SLing on that round also, it was Kashan 16, we capped up to US Outpost due to the great co-ordination between our inf and transport squads and planning from our CO. I think it was Celestial1?