MEC Vs US APCs - is it based on reality?

[MadTommy]

Let me 1st say... i'm sure this has been asked or discussed before. But after several searches and many pages i simply can't find it.


I'm sure we are all aware that the MEC APC pawns the US version. - fires twice as fast and is worth 2 US APCs any day.

Also do they fire the same size round in-game?

Is this based in fact or is it game balance? I'm not a military buff but it does seem odd how much more powerful the MEC one is.

(this is not a complaint/moan..but just a curiosity.)

Thanks.

[Masaq]

Well, the BTR-90 does have a 30mm cannon rather than the 25mm on the LAV-25. The Bushmaster cannon has a RoF of 200 rounds per minute, whilst the Shipunov on the BTR has either a 200-300 rds/m "low" rate for sustained fire or a 550 rd/m high rate.

Can't find details on the armour of the LAV anywhere, nor the penetration of the Sabot rounds the Bushmaster cannon fires - however the BTR's sabot rounds will go through 18 - 20 mm of armour at 1,000m, apparently.


So yeah, it doesn't look entirely unlikely that the BTR-90 could roll over the LAV-25 if it got the drop on it, although a military advisor would probably have a better idea than just 10 minutes of me googling

[MadTommy]

whilst the Shipunov on the BTR has either a 200-300 rds/m "low" rate for sustained fire or a 550 rd/m high rate.

Intresting.. thanks mate. I take in PR's set ROF is 550.

Does the MEC APC's gun overheat twice as fast as the US version ingame? As it doesn't seem to, but i can't say i've timed it.

(mas is better at driving google than me )

[Jaymz]

The MEC APC (BTR90) is not in full production in reality (most sources I've read say it's due to cost). So basically we have more of them in PR than there are currently in the world. The fact is that they both use 30mm cannons but the 2A42 cannon (on the BTR-90) has a higher rate of fire. Thus, it rocks the LAV-25's world.

Could be worse though, IRL those BTR-90's have a frickin AGS-17 auto grenade launcher on them too

@Tommy: It's set to 300 ingame. Think about it, if we set it to 550 it would almost shoot as fast as an AK!

[Masaq]

No idea mate, I'm not enough of a code monkey (or any kind of a code monkey) to go rummaging lol. I just spent 20 minutes looking for an image in PR's files only to have another Dev tell me the image in question is located in the BF2 files

But yeah, the RoF is set to the faster value, in-game. It's why I never go up against the BTR-90 without at least either a TOW hummer or 2 more LAV-25s with me.


Edit: You sure Jaymz? Thought the Bushmaster I was 25mm, and the II wasn't on the LAV-25 but slated for use on the future EFV?

[<1sk>Headshot]

Always wondered this, I love the BTR

At least now the pair aren't seen anymore in direct LAV-BTR engagements in equal numbers since the BMP started getting some use. Jabal is the only map I can think of which can be painful for the USMC without proper HAT use.

[Jaymz]

Yeah you're right Mas. Looks like this is also modelled in PR. I checked out the code and the BTR-90 cannon projectile does 10% more damage than the LAV-25's one.

[Masaq]

Hmm... that would make the BTR-90's cannon a 27.5mm? It should be doing a full 20% more damage lol.

In addition, for sustained fire the 2A42 can only manage 300 rd/m rather than the full 550. Given how APCs are used in PR, it might be worth dropping the RoF down to 300 - still 50% faster than the LAV-25 - and increasing the damage to a 20% bonus.

Currently the BTR-90 fires almost 300% faster, with 10% more damage - if we call LAV-25 damage "100" per minute then the BTR-90 does "330" (meaningless numbers, but to get an idea of scaling it'll do).

If we put the above changes in, the BTR-90 would fire only 50% faster, but doing 20% more damage - with LAV-25 damage of "100" per minute, the BTR-90 would do "180". A damn sight more balanced, but retaining the MEC's APC superiority.

[Outlawz7]

As far as LAV25 vs. BTR90 goes, the only thing that unbalances the LAV25 is the weak point on the turret, otherwise if the LAV25 gets the first shot it usually has more chances of winning the fight. However the skill of the crew is what usually still wins IMO; the higher ROF/more armor are just doggy treats.

[Drav]

nooooo leave it alone Masaq!!!! Stop BALANCING!!!!!

Asymetric warfare rocks and its why the americans have 2 apcs on Jabal/Muttrah. If they both gang up on the BTR they can beat it easily. And besides, I like the way the MEC have something big and scary over the Americans for once. The Americans already have all the cool toys on maps where this beast lives, don't nerf the one thing thats a serious thorn in their side.....

[<1sk>Headshot]

How can this possibly warrant changing, simplifying things..

BTR-90
ROF - 550 rounds/m High & 300 rounds/m Low
Callibre - 30mm
In-game ROF - ?300 round/m

LAV-25
ROF - 200 rounds/m High & 100 rounds/m Low
Callibre - 25mm
In-game ROF - ?200 rounds/m?

The BTRs GSh-301 30mm does an extra 10% damage than the LAVs M242.
The LAVs armour thickness is guessed at around 10mm, the GSh-301 c
[quote=""JANE's"]...stated to be able to penetrate, at a striking angle of 60°: 22 mm at a range of 500 m, 18 mm at 1,000 m, 14 mm[/quote]

I don't see any problem here, why change this for the purposes of mirrored assymetric balance, why can't we get out of this mind-set. There are alternative ways to balance the game instead of falsely changing weapon values and cutting the rounds/m to HALF the actual value. This APC kicks *** in real life, why can't we reflect this and give the USMC 2 LAVs or maybe identify an area in which USMC equipment isn't being reflected in-game as the real life counterpart is and increase that instead?

[quote="Outlawz""]As far as LAV25 vs. BTR90 goes, the only thing that unbalances the LAV25 is the weak point on the turret, otherwise if the LAV25 gets the first shot it usually has more chances of winning the fight.[/quote]Just no. Get any crew you want, BTR would rip them. Even a solo BTR can beat an LAV in its sleep if the LAV don't have an engineer.

[Masaq]

Guys my post wasn't made with the intention of starting a MEC vs USMC fanboy war, it was an attempt to address a possible disparity between the mod's stated aim of realistic RoF and damage for weapons, and the difference between the in-game BTR-90 and LAV-25 and their real counterparts.


And Johnny, 550 is 275% of 200. Not quite 300%, but close as damnit for a rough estimate.

200 / 100 = 1% = 2 rd/m
550 / 2 = 275% or 2.75 times faster.

[SocketMan]

Wtf you all talking about? You can kill the LAV with a .50 in under 30
seconds,assuming LAV doesn't shoot back.
It's up to the crew,the best crew always wins.
It's not like it's a duel:the LAV and BTR line up in front of each other at
100 meters,then the 3rd guy fires a pistol and they go at it
in this case BTR will always win.So? What do you do with the LAV against the
big bad BTR? You get sneaky or you gang bang em with a second LAV -as simple as that Don't make me show you

[Masaq]

Well, acording to wikipedia this turret has a dual feed (one HEAT, one API).

So there should be minimal switching time between them.

This also means that BOTH the 550 and the 200 rd/m fire rates could be added as maglinked weapons, so long as they can both overheat, ie extended use of the high RoF stops the low RoF being used for a while.

That's an interesting idea... wanna look into it for me?

[Caboosehatesbabies]

Wtf you all talking about? You can kill the LAV with a .50 in under 30
seconds,assuming LAV doesn't shoot back.
It's up to the crew,the best crew always wins.
It's not like it's a duel:the LAV and BTR line up in front of each other at
100 meters,then the 3rd guy fires a pistol and they go at it
in this case BTR will always win.So? What do you do with the LAV against the
big bad BTR? You get sneaky or you gang bang em with a second LAV -as simple as that Don't make me show you

WAT?!

I have never seen this with any of the Wheeled APC's. I've been in a LAV and gobbled up .50cal rounds like they were M&M's. And just a few days ago I was in the CHinese APC when a Stryker got the drop on us. I took .50cal rounds for about 15 seconds before I figured out where it was comming from and took 0 damage.

[Waaah_Wah]

^^There is a weak spot on the LAV where .50 cal rounds do plenty of damage.

Anwaysy, why change this? The MEC APC is superiour, yes. But if you are a bit sneaky, its pretty easy to kill with the LAV. When im APCing on the USMC team on Murrtah i usually have no problems with the MEC APC. If we see it first it will die anyways

[SocketMan]

WAT?!

I have never seen this with any of the Wheeled APC's. I've been in a LAV and gobbled up .50cal rounds like they were M&M's. And just a few days ago I was in the CHinese APC when a Stryker got the drop on us. I took .50cal rounds for about 15 seconds before I figured out where it was comming from and took 0 damage.

Courtesy EA SPORT my friend,it's been there since the vBF2 came out.
Extreme accuracy is required however.We all have week spots don't we? It is true about the .50 caliber. I don't like to make things up (like these)
If you want to balance - let's balance everything: the A10's,the CR2's,the BMP3's etc...it's
a long list.
Being smart and sneaky > anything.Waah Wah is bang on.