Insurgents and Militia need to go back being to what they Originally were...

[DavidP]

...An Insurgency and an Evolved Insurgency.

As of now (.809) the Insurgents Faction and the Militia Faction are not representing what they were originally Meant to be in Project Reality.


Let me start with my Favorite .6 faction. The Militia.

When first Introduced in PR the Militia was my favorite Faction in .6. They were to say the least "Unique." Unlike the British that they were put up against. They weren't as organized or as well equipped but they were fun to play as. Each and every Kit had a place. Militant was your 'Killing Guy,' Sapper was your standard Engineer except more defense oriented(PP-19>L85 in Cqc), Scout was a Semi Spec-Ops(Grapple > All other spec-ops gear on Mestia. Back when Spec-ops did not have grapples). And I loved it when the Officer had an SVD.(Justified the Skorpion) All of the Kits fit into place so nicely. Like a Jig-Saw puzzle except with Bullets.(Medic was useful too just not as a healer but as a Storm trooper. Clearing out bunkers with the PPsh was so much fun back in .6. Noone ever expected to get their *** handed to them by a Medic). Unlike the Conventional Factions with their standardization of Weapons and Calibers. The Militia really felt like the Insurgents taken to the Next level. Sure they had Kit request Ability. but only the Unlimited ones(Crewman,Pilot,Officer). And they had pickup kits aswell. But they felt so well balanced. Like a Conventional Faction and the Insurgent faction met in a bar(Or other place that people meet to hook-up) One of them got pregnant and looky here a couple months later, had a ******* child who hates both it's parents for being born. So it did things it's way. Taking the best of both of them and reducing/removing their flaws that got in the way of Fun & Gameplay. (Remember those words for later)

But In .7 that all changed with the Introduction of A conventional faction Kit request system, and removal of Pick-up kits. Now I understand the Justifications were "Gameplay." But honestly Gameplay was not better, coupled with the .7 deviation being a Militia soldier was harder then usual. Gameplay only improved when the .75 patch hit. With the deviation reductions making the Ak47 and SKS equal to the L85 in CQC.(I once opened fire full auto with my Ak into a group of brits not 20m away with their backs turned to me. I missed all of them, I saw the bullets hit around them like a circle) At range you were still at a disadvantage because of the L85's scope and superior Iron sights.(150-200m Us/Uk Irons > G3/AK/Qbz irons in .75) They did'nt feel like they did in .6 they felt like almost like a conventional faction.(I say almost because the scout was still different enough to warrant them differentiated enough. Even with the Ammo bag and Frags added{Unnecessarly} making him a semi-militant)


But I honestly cannot say the same for the .8 Militia. They are a conventional Faction minus the Standardized Assault rifle. But with other More unneccessary standardizations. Scout is the New sapper except made to be like a Conventional faction Mountain Engy. Militant with SKS is useless and Unused. And Medic? Revive abilities are nice, But he still wields an SMG anything past 50m is hard to engage. It aint that bad because you are more paranoid then a Conventional army Medic, but when long(er) range fire is needed whats the best you can do? Other then hope to not get shot? And with most squads now running with 2 medics. It puts another burden on the squad as a whole. In .6 a Usual Militia Squad Consisted of 1 Officer, 1 Scout, 2 Militants, 1 Sapper, and 1 Medic. In .7-.75 I usually ran with 1 Officer, 2 Militants, 2 Sappers, and Someone with Either Long range or Anti-tank abilities.(No revive no medic needed).

Listen guys the list goes on and on. But Bottom Line the Militia is no longer an Evolved Insurgency it is a Conventional Faction with 5 different Spawn weapons. And a Full auto Side-arm. This does not constitute the Militia as Either a Militia or an Evolved Insurgency. I sometimes feel that the Militia is a pet project of one of the dev's. All these changes have not been made for Fun & Gameplay but to fulfill the devs' feelings/wants/needs. Ya ya i know the dev's made the mod and it's theirs to change as they wish. But you forget something. We are the players, the Audience. We are playing this Mod because want to. We have a right to be dissatisfied with the changes as much as the dev's have a right to make them.



Insurgents:

Oh god where do i start? Well in .5 Insurgents were my favorite faction because of the way they played. In .6 and .7-.75 they still had this distinct 'flavor' to them. But not .8. Again they do do not feel like an Insurgency but, but like a Devolved .7 Militia.

First off Why does every class have Binocs? If Standard Insurgents can get a 100$ pair of binocs, then why not get scopes for their AK47's? Ambushers i can understand. But why Cannon Fodder Insurgents? Does this not undermine the Insurgency aspect of being an under equipped low level fighter?

Second. Shovels and building hide-outs. Again if every class gets shovels that undermines the Insurgency aspect. Maybe if only collaborators got shovels there use would be greatly increased? Most people don't care about dying as insurgents anyway even with the longer respawn. Again cannon fodder.(Unless you have an RPG or SVD)

Third and Most importantly. Insurgents are supposed to be the Fighters of the group. Not the Builders or the Scouts. That job should be reserved for the Civi. I'm tired of the extra role's added to them. Insurgency's happen mostly in cities. Binocs are unneeded. You should be defending your Ambusher or having a civi spot things out for your squad. I miss being the Simple Insurgent of .75 fighting from room to room with my AK47 on basrah or archer. That's what we did best, Killing! That's what separated us from the Conventional Army Riflemen and our own War Vets.

Ambusher is no better. Whats the point of giving him a shovel when he's too busy setting up Ied's for ambush?(Or should I say Ied?) Also it's too easy to get killed as ambusher. You wear all that extra model gear. It's so easy to identify you from a crowd of civi's. And RKG wielding insurgents. (Seriously there were US army camping one of our mosques on archer and to keep from getting killed I would run with my teammates who were Insurgents with RKG's, at the same time out of the mosque, with my Binocs out to keep myself from getting shot. Did not freaking work! I was the first one to be killed all the time.)

Insurgency does not feel like an Insurgency anymore. It does not feel like a loose confederation of individuals fighting with irregular tactics against an invader. It feels like we're a bunch of pawns of a much greater scheme.





God I'm not gonna go on any longer I'm just gonna say it. I want both the Insurgents and Militia to back to their Roots. As an Insurgency and an Evolved Insurgency. I honestly don't know what to suggest other then. For the dev's to bring Both of these factions back to what they were in .5 and .6 respectively. Sure keep the fire-bases and some of the other stuff but bring back what made you introduce these factions in the first place. Irregular methods of play to break up the monogamy of 2 standard Conventional Factions facing each other on a set map.(Usually mirrored)





P.S. If anyone has any suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

[Tirak]

Perhaps you could elaborate on the earlier versions of Insurgents and what specifically you liked about them, other than that I agree, Militia and Insurgents should be flavorful and unique, not more and more standardized and fit into Conventional Army Roles.

[Defiyur]

You make some interesting points. I do think insurgents could use something..like more specialization I'd say. I agree with your point about the ambusher should have binocs also the cell leader, collaborator & sniper. Everyone else no binocs. Less gear to use means more time spent using the little gear you do have. The shovels?....not sure though it could work out better if only civis had them but I don't know really (but a good point you make). I'll bring up the molotovs...I don't know how many insurgents would bother with them IRL. They are more of a "civilian" weapon that get used on the spot and not 'insurgent kit' I'd say (but maybe I'm wrong I don't know)

Actually a crazy idea would be to have the 'civilian' with a grapple & med packs and that's it AND he gets immunity from the opposing force (AKA can't shoot him). Then have a 'collaborator' which carries the cell phone, binocs, a concealed pistol AND 1 RKG-3 AT grenade. Why? Because if you've seen videos of those RKGs being used they are used by people that you cannot hope to distinguish from non combatant civilians. Basically just normal looking guys then they whip it out at the last second and BAM. Another thing about the collaborator: have him able to call more frequent morter strikes but only a small amount of rounds each time (like 4). Or if possible have a numerical limit which he can call all in succession or a few at a time etc. Also have the civi & collaborator dressed exactly the same so the opfor REALLY REALLY has to keep on their toes. "Is it a 'normal' civi or an ambush in disguise?" Just some ideas floating in my head.

[LtSoucy]

I agree, in the 0.6 the INS couldn't take the British head-on. Now they can, they can run in the streets and are turning into a modernized army, something they were far from in 0.6. great post by the way.

[DavidP]

@Tirak. You know i don't know where to start? I mean for one i loved how awesome it was having less equipment which you could get more use out of compared to the Conventional Factions. The .5 Insurgents were more well rounded compared their successor incarnations. The .6 Militia in nearly every aspect was the same. Unlike the Monotony of the Conventional forces, You were really 1 of few. You felt like an Individual fighter doing what he does best with his/her kit of choice.

@Defiyur. Nah if you make one kit invulnerable it will be abused. Someone once suggested that Collaborator have regular insurgents spawn times if they get caught, and higher if shot. I.e. the opposite of the old system. That's an Idea i like. The 30 minute in between each mortar strike should not go because it prevents spam.

@Soucy. True. Definitely true. On ramiel it's easy as hell to run into the street and take on a US squad face to face with the AK. It's even easier when it's on full auto.

[hyraclyon]

Also why does every single class have RKG-grenades? It's not like insurgents can't get their hands on normal grenades, AT grenades would be harder to get actually. I mean i do like them but the effect should be changed cause the explosion is WAY too small now (if you have seen some of the propaganda insurgent vids from iraq you know what i mean) and not every single class should have them. I think only ambusher should have them really. Maybe the damage done by them can then be increased a bit to counter the fact that only one class has them.

[DavidP]

Agree. I think that Only ambushers should have RKG's. The other Insurgent should get either a regular frag grenade(Like it's not used for that now anyway), Or... Hell maybe an ammo bag? I really don't know.

[the other Steve]

milita was, and still is my favorite faction. i have to agree whit your points. milita should go back to his routes, its almost plays like a regular faction now. which is sad and take the fun away.

and to the thing you pointed out. jes, its the devs mod, maybe they have theyr super PR vision in mind whit 100% same faction... but keep in mind that we are the blood of PR, the players, if we decide that these changes kills the fun for us, then we leave, your mod will bleed out.

[Defiyur]

Also why does every single class have RKG-grenades? It's not like insurgents can't get their hands on normal grenades, AT grenades would be harder to get actually. I think only ambusher should have them really.

Yep. Ambushers and collaborators only IMO should have them. "standard" insurgents should get frag grenades. I'd even go so far as to say the ambusher shouldn't have them because the way they are used IRL is by guys dressed as "regular" civilians because they need to get close to use them. Something which isn't possible by an insurgent toting a gun.

[Defiyur]

@Defiyur. Nah if you make one kit invulnerable it will be abused.

I mean how it is right now where you can't shoot "civilians" except in certain circumstances (while grappling, climbing ladder). Sorry I should have said use the same parameters as now.

Someone once suggested that Collaborator have regular insurgents spawn times if they get caught, and higher if shot. I.e. the opposite of the old system. That's an Idea i like. The 30 minute in between each mortar strike should not go because it prevents spam.

But if there's a way to code it so you have a pool of mortars and it's up to you how you use them I don't think that'd be a problem. Actually I'd like to do away with the ins comm mortar approval and just have a mortar class who can set up the mortar, pop off a few (or many) rounds. It could work how the artillery in FH2 works. One guy spots a target then you line up the azimuths and fire. Of course he would have limited ammo and could restock at caches. Also mortar trucks I know exist. That's much more 'insurgent like' than calling it in to your insurgent overlord.

[daranz]

To me, militia feels like a ragtag army. Poorly equipped, using outdated equipment, but nevertheless, an army. It certainly makes for different gameplay. I'm not sure if I like it, but I certainly like the fact that the medic gets revive capability now (no more need to look for that one medic kit, dropped by one of the 3 medics on the british team).

As to insurgents, I'd oppose any sort of non-civilian civilians. It just wouldn't work out very well in the context of the game, for a wide variety of reasons. I say keep civvies civvie, and combatant kits combatant. Yes, some rearranging of kits might be in order, but keep weapons out of the civvie kit. I also wouldn't want the insurgents to lose the binoculars. Surely it's not really that unrealistic, and it helps to be able to tell apart the 3 pixels off in the distance; nevermind the fact that in real life, your eyes don't work in a limited resolution, so in game you need binocs for things you wouldn't need binocs for in reality.

As to mortars, in real life, insurgent mortar positions get pinpointed within a couple of shots by radar. I don't know how accurately you can simulate that in PR. Insurgents could conceivably sit in one place and spam mortars until they run out of ammo. That doesn't really happen in real life, as real life insurgents are afraid of getting killed by a helicopter if they stay in the same spot for too long.

[DavidP]

@daranz. Semi-Agree on the first part. Sure the term rag-tag does fit them well. But it does not define them.

Fully-Agree on the second and third.

[DeltaFart]

I do agree, Insurgency doesn't play out as well as it used to, the sniper rifle for them is bupcis past 1 block, and they don't even look like insurgents, just national guardsmen who forgot their uniforms and strapped on their gear. Militia I have a hard time since I haven't played them enough to really see a difference

[Expendable Grunt]

Ins should have, as spawnable kits, their cell leader, insurgant with molotov and AK, insurgent with an F1 and AK, an insurgent with PPSh or SKS or some sort of less mainline arm and <insert something neat here>, and their ambusher.

[DavidP]

Ins should have, as spawnable kits, their cell leader, insurgant with molotov and AK, insurgent with an F1 and AK, an insurgent with PPSh or SKS or some sort of less mainline arm and <insert something neat here>, and their ambusher.

And what will that solve grunt? Everyone wants to suggest kit load-outs to the dev's on how they think 'it should be' not what needs to be from a gameplay perspective. I honestly am sick of people just making threads just to usggest kit load-outs.(And i'm guessing the dev's are aswell because of the suggestion forum being locked for 2 weeks).


Kit loadouts will not affect gameplay much, unless it's pretty drastic.

[Sanke]

The ambusher kit needs the RPG,RKG,3 IEDS, AK 101, Scorpion,med bag and epi pens, flying carpet,night vision, portable GAU 8, Cell phone that calls pizza hut, more IEDS,PKM, about 3 or 4 M4's, 14 grenades, 8 SLAMS, SA 7 grail with 12 and a half rounds, computer to max pr so you can play PR while you play PR, that VIP SUV, and some rocks.

What do you say devs?

[Razick]

and some fuzzy dice for the clown cars on top of that^

[HughJass]

ANYWAY, I'd say the insurgents get some better ironsights, I constantly think that the left part of the front sights on the AK is where I'm supposed to be aiming at ??:

[RETRO]

insurgents need RPG kit//...
its take a lot of time to find RPG/find ammo for it
while brit's apc, tank do what they want in the city
yesterday i watched blackhawk down
as you remember there were a lot of insurgents (skinnies)
they have a huge amount of RPG making nightmare for US troops...
If there r 64 PR fans on the server
32 vs 32
32 - brits
32 - insurgents !!! no scopes...no kits...
i think the number of INS must be larger than brits...this difference can be reached by reducing spawntime.
It will make the huge presence of insurgent's opposing forces in the city/
sorry for my mistakes/ not my native language

[DavidP]

*sigh* More people that still don't get the point.