Project Reality and it's target player base.

[OkitaMakoto]

I forget where the exact quote is, but it's out there, and from Eggman I believe...

...PR is aimed at being the kind of game that the Devs want to play.


If other people want to play with them that's great, but it's not aimed specifically at a certain type of player other than being how the Dev team want it.

Pro Tip, you can pretty much count on Masaq to end a thread with a single post...

That being said, I agree. If you love the game and want to play, GREAT thats awesome!!! If yo dont.. oh well

Thats not directed at anyone, but its just something I agree with. We have a lot of people who agree with the direction and thats GREAT! It better be as popular as it is now in ten months :\

[Deer]

Pro Tip, you can pretty much count on Masaq to end a thread with a single post...

That being said, I agree. If you love the game and want to play, GREAT thats awesome!!! If yo dont.. oh well

Thats not directed at anyone, but its just something I agree with. We have a lot of people who agree with the direction and thats GREAT! It better be as popular as it is now in ten months :\

I wrote this a bit more than week ago, think it fits here as same thing is being talked about again. Mainly suggesting there that its very easy, smooth and small job to make 2 versions of the mod. 1 for "hard core" and 1 for "casual"-players, so that server admins can choose which one they host, with 1 same game installation.

Question is that why to follow that basic thinking where 1 computer game can only have 1 kind of gameplay, that kind of thinking has been going on since a beginging of computer games. While same time it would be super easy to make multiple versions of the gameplay and let server admins choose which one to pick.
This way more ppls can enjoy the game, and all you need to do is tiny little adjustments. This should be applied atleast on the features that splits players opinions most radically.

In short, its so easy to give players an option to choose do they want feature version 1, or feature version 2, its only up to developers do they want to give that option for the players and i cannot understand any reasons why not. Its not only about this mod, its about all games. (well MMOs has understood this, they have PVP servers and PVE servers and loads of other sorts of servers, they let players to choose which kind of gameplay to pick, and thats one reason why those games are so succesful)

Now that many ppls are talking about this, maybe i should say this again.

Source of worsening and worsening teamwork in public players is that every since SquadLeader-spawnpoint was removed, it has been too difficult for public-level players to stay together. And if its too difficult for them to stay together, it is too difficult for them to even have a chance to do teamwork. Because before you can do teamwork, you need to be close to squadmates. And this issue happens regardless of does the squad use voip or not.

For players who plays with friends or clanmates this is not a problem. For public players it is the source of all teamwork-problems.



PR used to make completely random ppls go together, form squad, and do very nice teamwork. Some ppls did less teamwork and some did more, but point is that when it was possible for ppls to stay together so easily, everyone did _automaticly_ somekind of teamwork with other squad members.


If you try to deny that teamwork in public players isnt worsening and worsening nowadays, read what ppls are talking in this thread and also look at your map while playing on regular servers, see how 95% of public-squads are spread out around map most of the time, squad mates are far from eachothers most of the time.


We have 2 kinds of players now. Players who looks for bit more dedicated teamwork, and players that are less hardcore(most of the players). Now the less hardcore players are being kicked from specific servers and therefore those servers only has dedicated teamworkers playing on the server. And then players that are kicked out of those servers which supports only dedicated teamworking, goes on servers where they are allowed to play the game.
This leads to situation where standard ppl are playing in normal servers, and dedicated teamwork players are playing on those specific teamwork-servers.

So solution to all this would be making an option that server admins can choose if there is a squadleader-spawnpoint, or not. That way public players and players who likes it, get squadleader-spawns and gameplay is once again much better for everyone. While dedicated teamwork servers where is "hardcore teamwork-fans", doesnt need the squadleader-spawnpoints

[Outlawz7]

...PR is aimed at being the kind of game that the Devs want to play.

So there never was a non-Dev player population that PR would be aimed to suit?

[[DVB] Avalon.ca]

is eggman still around? how bout therealfritz? i am not sure i have heard their names mentioned in awhile. and with the direction the mod is going in, should they be giving credit for it? PR is only as good as its player base. and having a lot of players dosn't mean quility. PR historicly has had the cream of the crop in the BF world, is that still the case?


the devs made a great mod... the players made the mode great.

try not to lose sight of that.

[PlatinumA1]

i like the reasonably realistic jet stuff.

no were else can i (without blowing up my computer)shoot at air targets yet also get feedback from ground troops and targets from then.

i also like infantry cordination and armour stuff.

i dont think that pr is being tailored to clans, yes its more diffiuclt for new commers but its still can be grasped after playing a couple of hours.

As much as you love jets , you don't play any kind of flight simulators?

[OkitaMakoto]

Making two versions of PR would split the number of players. Youd have those who almost always play on the hardcore real PR, and then those who almost always play on the toned down one... thereby almost cutting server populations in half, or at least the number of available servers[if you only want to play one of those versions]

Multiple versions, imo, has no benefit aside from allowing those who want decreased spawn times, minimap, and whatever else back to get their way... which is a no go in my book.

And I dont think the higher up DEVS have "lost sight" of what PR is or was

[Conman51]

i think the mod still can get alot off ppl to play it

also who have to know hwo a casual gamer is..a casual gamer is some one who like the pure spawn and shoot games..like cod4 or bf2...pr isnt oriented towards them and im ok w/ taht and i think it should stay like taht...if your willing to put in the time to learn pr and be patient in the game it is the best game ever!!!!

[Deer]

OkitaMakoto;817411']Making two versions of PR would split the number of players. Youd have those who almost always play on the hardcore real PR, and then those who almost always play on the toned down one... thereby almost cutting server populations in half, or at least the number of available servers[if you only want to play one of those versions]

What do you mean ? ofc it makes some ppls play the hardcore version and some ppls play the casual version. Because casual version is more enjoyable for casual players, and hardcore version is more enjoyable for hardcore players. (And just to ensure that there wont be misunderstandings, i dont mean that we should make 2 versions of game client)

Ppls joins the servers which gameplay settings is best for them. And it does not mean that there would be only 50% full servers, it wouldnt change the big picture of the servers population at all.
Realistic situation in server list is like feature version 1 fans are playing on 3 different servers, and feature version 2 fans are playing on 6 different servers. Some servers on both features are full, some are not. Just like now, nothing changes.

And when there is more features where server admins can choose different versions of them, the servers with settings that pleases players most, has ofc most of the players. Players gets to choose which settings to play, and because of some of the features splits players opinions so much (mostly between hardcore players and casual players), splitting the feature into 2 versions means that both versions of the feature has its fans.

Instead of trying to make casuals play like you would like them to(which doesnt seem to work), you let them choose little bit different style and still you can play like you want with ppls who likes to play like you do on hardcore servers = everyone gets what they wants. I really want this to happen because i cant play enjoyable PR on most of the servers because of crappy teamwork, its been like this since 0.7 was released (and SL-spawn removed). There is only like 1-2 servers where its possible. In 0.6 which supported casual players teamworking much more, it was possible to play enjoyable PR on all servers. And according to forums, im not the only one.


In short: this is same thing as MMORPGs servers. There is different kind of servers, PVP, PVE, PVPRP.. Imagine if MMOs would have only PVE servers, thats the situation where we are right now, just like all non-MMO games.

[fuzzhead]

In short:

This has come up in the past, and was decided by most devs that a divide in the dev team as well as the pr community between a "pr casual" and "pr hardcore" would catastrophically split the mod apart.

Basically, if you want to play a "pr light", there are hundreds of games and mods out there, cod4, insurgency, counterstrike, etc.

The mod has never intended to aspire to be popular, and never intended to cater to the casual mainstream playerbase. The day PR is catering towards casual players, is the day you will see alot of PR devs move onto new projects and probably a sizeable chunk of the player base with it.

Check this video out for example of a PR "lite" with unlimited kits and squad leader respawn:

A tale of two floors

If thats the type of gameplay you are after, its already avaliable and has a nice following RIGHT HERE

[Darkpowder]

The whole debate is only coming up again because of the very large size of the playerbase now. The mod is right to teach and bring about a more tactical gameplay style. For those that think this mod is unaccessable it really isn't as every day i see BF2 players frustrated by baserape, lone wolf tanking, vehicle stealing, circle strafing copters move to PR.

If you don't remember how useless public BF2 servers were, go and play them and you will realise how good we have it now. That is until you see a server with one man tanks on PR, the biggest problem in the mod right now. 60sec+ turret activation time FTW

This is the game that EA wanted to make, but couldn't as it has to cater for mass market, we aren't making money, hence people have the choice to play with us or not.

The limits on how hardcore and tactical the game can become will arrive one day because the squads cannot talk to one another on voip, now that we have our enemy formation markers, this is a lot better.

[Deer]

The whole debate is only coming up again because of the very large size of the playerbase now. The mod is right to teach and bring about a more tactical gameplay style. For those that think this mod is unaccessable it really isn't as every day i see BF2 players frustrated by baserape, lone wolf tanking, vehicle stealing, circle strafing copters move to PR.

If you don't remember how useless public BF2 servers were, go and play them and you will realise how good we have it now. That is until you see a server with one man tanks on PR, the biggest problem in the mod right now. 60sec+ turret activation time FTW

This is the game that EA wanted to make, but couldn't as it has to cater for mass market, we aren't making money, hence people have the choice to play with us or not.

The limits on how hardcore and tactical the game can become will arrive one day because the squads cannot talk to one another on voip, now that we have our enemy formation markers, this is a lot better.

So you want to keep the player base small, and throw out those who cant play teamworking way, right ?

But those who doesnt play teamworking way, wont leave, and i dont think they should either(because there is so easy solution).
Those so called "public players" "casual players" stays here in PR, they dont do teamwork because its been made too hard for them. And that leads to situation where server admins chooses what kind of players plays in their servers and that leads to situation where hardcores are playing only in few servers and they cannot play on any other servers because its unplayable for them, they dont only dislike casual servers, they hate it, they cant play on other servers because casual players teamwork is so ****.

Thats why i suggested to make casual players teamworking be as easy as it once was, so it becomes functional once again. With squad leader spawn it was fine enough for even hardcores to play among the casuals.

When teamworking was made harder by removing SL-Spawn, it became too hard for casuals but more fun for hardcore players, and loads of ppls have been talking about this in forums, casual players says that its too frustrating to lead their squad because squad mates are like lemmings with VOIP and assault rifle. Squads are spreading out all over map, they dont stay together most of the time, because they just simply cant, because they are casual players. And same time hardcore players are saying that they find themselfs playing PR less and less all the time(because its harder and harder to find playable PR because there is so many casuals).

Best way to bring back SL-Spawn would be that server admins can choose if they want to apply it on their server or not.

[Cassius]

I guess its the nature of a teamwork based game that clans have an edge over casual players. To counter that iam trying to bring out guides on tactics and kit usage, so that there is some common knowledge on how to integrate the kits in the gameplay use the sniper kit etc.. Of course it all depends on the dedication of the players. Most on this forum at least appreaciate the teamplay aspect, but there is a number of players who just wants to shoot stuff, but usually they migrate to some other game.

[PeterLorre]

I think its clear that Project Reality is not going to rule the waves im afraid.

[wooly-back-jack]

no offence to alot of clanners but If I see one team being mainly one or two clans or even [R-] I wont bother as you usually find everybody trying to be on that team, and if you (for some strange reason)end up spawning in on that team you will usually be kicked from squads for clan-members or not be able to get into locked squads.
Just find yourself another server.
I love PR the way it is, you have just got to find yourself a few decent servers that suit you.

[Jigsaw]

I started playing in 0.75 and thoroughly enjoyed it, and I think 0.8 is the right way to go in terms of the actual title of the mod - "project reality"! This is supposed to be realistic and therefore 0.8 going a bit more hardcore was the right way to go imo.

As for it being catered to clans I realise that it is difficult for n00bs to adjust to but I also think that if they get involved on the forum and play servers like T&T then they can learn a lot quickly and get something out of the game.

Im a member of T&T but rarely do we actually play a game with just T&T guys becos its good to have n00bs mixed in where they can learn but still be part of a successful team.

The best way for clans to do this is to have a few SLs who know oneanother or are experienced in the game and then the others can join those squads knowing that they will have a good SL who can guide them through and who they can learn from.

[M.Warren]

fuzzhead;817566']A tale of two floors

If thats the type of gameplay you are after, its already avaliable and has a nice following RIGHT HERE

Not exactly the gameplay I would say I'm looking for.

Although the video does prove a valid point about how gameplay can degrade to nade spam and spawn camping. But in the same breath, can you blame players for using thier instinct to use a system to thier will and to thier benefit? I couldn't.

The true person to blame is not the players, but the person(s) who developed that level. There are more than enough FPS games out there to have learned it is one of the oldest tricks in the book to use a "choke point" to gain an advantage.

Common sense in map building would tell an individual to make a minimum of two or more ingress points into one specific area. And/or including a sufficient alternative means to gain access to that area. In example, destructable buildings, destructable walls, or even explosive munitions to aid in clearing that area.

Afterall, who can forget the map "Assault on Mestia" with the 2 upper tower areas. Several times have I heard it referred to as the "Panic Room". I've beared witness to or even became a victim to that method. Especially how ironic that the other 2 bunkers surrounding the tower are destructable, but the one at the very top, where it counts the most isn't.

Also another point about nade spamming and spawn camping... The problem with BF2 is that players couldn't penetrate an area and capture a flagzone without having to deal with spawning players. Thusly making it necessary to kill them off as they kept coming in waves. That's why whenever a flagzone becomes contested with a number of enemy troops, the spawn feature needs to be nutralized.

The same idiots complaining about spawn camping are the same ones that keep spawning at that flag. No one's forcing you to do so, you did it to yourself. It's the same as people using helicopters for transport. You don't land a helicopter to drop off troops ontop of a hot flagzone. What do you think is going to happen? But people do it anyways because they don't think.

The idea about this is to simulate a "front line" system. But at the point where the invading forces are about to move onto the flag, the defending forces can no longer spawn there. Thusly, this results in the remaining defending forces that are on the flagzone to be left on thier own until the respawning defence players can return to the front lines. Hopefully thereafter the respawning defense players from another location (Rally Point, Bunker, Firebase, Alternative Flagzone.) can reinforce and repel the invading force.

In short, as long as there is an invading force within 0-250 meters of the flag zone the defending force can't spawn on it. Whoevers left to defend it at that point is on thier own. At some point after that, if the invading force gets within 0m-50m from the flagzone they can begin to capture it. Of course, UCB Main (Uncappable Base) flags cannot be stopped from spawning players.

There really isn't anything wrong with players spawning on flags, afterall they belong to the team. Just no one has ever perfected or refined the method. That's why we're here using Bunkers and Firebases instead. In some ways, I think players should be able to use Bunkers and Firebases as an alternative method and use them as "supporting structures" to reinforce those areas.

Even after the flagzone is "contested" and defending players cannot spawn on it, however if there is a Bunker or Firebase in the area they can still spawn on that instead. So building these structures will still prove to be useful. The same in which for Rally Points

But of course, this is just another theory on possibly improving gameplay. It simply acts as a thought to dwell on.

[CAS_117]

I think certain more responsible servers should have the ability to make server side changes.

[Darkpowder]

There really isn't anything wrong with players spawning on flags, afterall they belong to the team. Just no one has ever perfected or refined the method.

The main problem with flag spawning in areas easily accessable by the enemy is spawnkilling. You still see it with firebases/bunkers but the emplaced guns ususally put paid to that, i'm glad that spawnkilling is now rapidly declining with the new rallypoint system.

Mainly the issue is still badly placed rallypoints ot not at all.

The times i see Kashan start with a tank rush, and after the tanks are all dead to the one-man turret defence on the nearest ridgeline there are no rallypoints up, no bunkers started, and no flags taken.

I see the future as combination scenario mode with AAS, forcing the construction of firebases before other objectives can be taken, that way not only teaching them tactics but strategy too.

When teamworking was made harder by removing SL-Spawn, it became too hard for casuals but more fun for hardcore players, and loads of ppls have been talking about this in forums, casual players says that its too frustrating to lead their squad because squad mates are like lemmings with VOIP and assault rifle. Squads are spreading out all over map, they dont stay together most of the time, because they just simply cant, because they are casual players. And same time hardcore players are saying that they find themselfs playing PR less and less all the time(because its harder and harder to find playable PR because there is so many casuals).

Every day i see players improving, i do believe BF2 vanilla players can learn teamwork. They don't have to be 2-squad 4 fireteam section attack masters.. just head in the right direction and follow some orders.

In my experience squads aren't spreading out randomly all over the map, i recently played at very early GMT hours with USA players on USA servers. I saw some really good teamwork, use of markers and airstrike commands.

On the whole, the problem a lot of the time, is that we aren't getting commanders enough now, and we are dependent on them to drop enemy formation markers more than ever.

We could slack that off and give the marker command to a SL, in the style of letting SL's build assets/firebases etc without orders from commander.

This release we saw the biggest increase in the playerbase, it always equalises out, and personally i'm seeing players get up to speed a LOT quicker now we have a good manual, and hopefully some helpful experienced players being squad leaders.

Personally i think the main problem is experienced players missing the old days, of quick run and die and respawn tactics. The new players are lapping up the new features.

I am hearing from the regular players i play with that this release and some of the times on the maps - new and old are the best games / rounds they have ever played. We got 0.8 very right i think, with just a couple of small tweaks to fix it.

SL spawning is not the answer, there are a dozen mods that do that, and those that like it can go play there. Player numbers don't seem to be dwindling, quite the opposite.

My main point:-

1 - Experienced players, stand up and squad-lead.
2 - Use the server TS if its there, to help coordinate
3 - Brand new players, don't be afraid to ask questions, and experienced players try to be tolerant and helpful, just saying "GO TO TRAINING server FFS, or RTFM you noob isn't helpful.